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Osborning the Mac, or not

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Re: Osborning the Mac, or not

#151

Post by jeffbee »

mikece wrote: post #116

1. Apple designed chips are already faster per-core than a top-end MacBook Pro. 2. There's no reason dedicated ASIC modules for specialized tasks (like video rendering) can't be connected by Thunderbolt 3 just as external video/compute modules are now. 3. There's no reason a dedicated x86-64 dongle can't be sold for ARM-powered Macs that need to run software that hasn't been ported yet. It would be a spectacular coup…

1. Please don't extrapolate from a useless program like Geekbench to a general concept such as "faster"

2-3. TB3 is a single PCIe x4 link, which is not even enough for a single state-of-the-art SSD. It's certainly not fast enough to connect an entire other computer to, except for certain embarrassing workloads.

Re: Osborning the Mac, or not

#152

Post by pier25 »

bitwize wrote: post #126
C1sc0cat wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even for the Mac Pro workstations? I bet Apple Audio and VFX shops will not be happy

Within a year or two, Apple ARM parts will trounce x86-64 performance-wise.

I don't think the concern is about performance but compatibility.

Even if all major developers (Autodesk, BlackMagic, Ableton, Steinberg, etc) are able to switch to ARM there is a myriad of plugin developers out there who might not be able to do it.

Catalina and the 32bit EOL hit the audio world very hard.

Re: Osborning the Mac, or not

#153

Post by Wowfunhappy »

protomyth wrote: post #85
renaudg wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the Mac and iDevices revenue streams are not as independent as you imply. Driving the Mac off a cliff would alienate developers and have serious repercussions on the iOS ecosystem as well. Why do you think Apple still builds Pro apps like Logic and FCP ? They are almost certainly losing money given their ridiculously low price point, but they help with brand image and keeping the Mac the go-to platform for cr…

Driving the Mac off a cliff would alienate developers and have serious repercussions on the iOS ecosystem as well. For iOS Developers, I am not so sure. If Apple came out with Xcode for Windows at WWDC, I'm pretty sure a lot of iOS developers would be overjoyed. Now, a build farm is much easier among other advantages.

Another possibility: Xcode for iPadOS.

Re: Osborning the Mac, or not

#154

Post by Wowfunhappy »

jmpman wrote: post #148

I buy iMacs for my personal use, as they spend the majority of the time running Windows 10 for gaming. Sure I could build/buy a dedicated gaming machine, but I like the hardware (Great monitor, quiet, sleek, mostly trouble-free) and my iMac can play any game at 1080p. Without bootcamp support, I’m going to abandon the Mac hardware for personal, and then for business use. There’s no way an ARM processor is going to be…

A theoretical possibility: Apple could make Bootcamp support Windows on ARM. I don't know that they'll do it, but they could and it would be interesting.

The choice will also say something about how Apple views these ARM Macs: Are they iPhone-esque devices made exclusively for Apple software, or are they (relatively) open-ended computing platforms capable of booting alternate operating systems?

Re: Osborning the Mac, or not

#155

Post by toyg »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #154
jmpman wrote: post #148

I buy iMacs for my personal use, as they spend the majority of the time running Windows 10 for gaming. Sure I could build/buy a dedicated gaming machine, but I like the hardware (Great monitor, quiet, sleek, mostly trouble-free) and my iMac can play any game at 1080p. Without bootcamp support, I’m going to abandon the Mac hardware for personal, and then for business use. There’s no way an ARM processor is going to be…

A theoretical possibility: Apple could make Bootcamp support Windows on ARM. I don't know that they'll do it, but they could and it would be interesting. The choice will also say something about how Apple views these ARM Macs: Are they iPhone-esque devices made exclusively for Apple software, or are they (relatively) open-ended computing platforms capable of booting alternate operating systems?

Windows itself struggled to support ARM. Bootcamp alone is not going to cut it, at least for some time.

Re: Osborning the Mac, or not

#156

Post by earthboundkid »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #51
comex wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would an app maker update their old apps before an announcement was made that they would be deprecated? Almost immediately after 64-bit support was added in 2005, it was the recommended path, not only for new apps but for existing ones to migrate to. For example, an document called "64-bit Transition Guide for Cocoa" [1] was first published in 2007. A few years later, another document [2] was more explicit: > S…

So then why were there so many 32 bit apps? 2005 is, what, a year after the Intel transition? Surely not all of those apps were written during that one year. Not to mention, for better or worse, games in particular were 32bit through 2018 at least. I imagine this must have had something to do with cross platform compatibility, although I can't imagine what.

> So then why were there so many 32 bit apps?

Were there? On iOS, I lost access to a lot of games due to the 32 to 64 transition. On Mac OS, nothing I used was impacted. If your app wasn't 64 bit, it was abandonware. Even the abandonware that I actually use, like Gitbox, was already 64 bit.

Re: Osborning the Mac, or not

#157

Post by Wowfunhappy »

robertoandred wrote: post #23
jedberg wrote: post #19

Everyone here is very positive that the transition will go smoothly based on their last few transitions being fairly successful. I'm a bit more skeptical. Back then, their desktop/laptop business line was much more important to them. They needed it to go well. They were also a niche player and couldn't afford to lose more market share to PCs/Windows. But now, they barely care about their desktop/laptop revenue (being…

Including 64-bit support until Catalina was effectively the same as Rosetta: support for deprecated tech. A Rosetta for 64-bit is just kicking the can.

The difference, to me, is that Rosetta was an inherently bad experience for users. The apps ran slower and used more battery, because despite Apple's best efforts, it was still an emulator, and emulators are slow.

The amd64 architecture, by contrast, innately supports i386 code—that's a key feature of the platform! Removing support from macOS does not benefit users; it only benefits Apple by lowering Apple's maintenance burden.

Given that Apple is one of the richest companies in the world, and they sell Mac hardware at a large markup, I'm not particularly sympathetic to their plight.

Re: Osborning the Mac, or not

#158

Post by pavlov »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #154
jmpman wrote: post #148

I buy iMacs for my personal use, as they spend the majority of the time running Windows 10 for gaming. Sure I could build/buy a dedicated gaming machine, but I like the hardware (Great monitor, quiet, sleek, mostly trouble-free) and my iMac can play any game at 1080p. Without bootcamp support, I’m going to abandon the Mac hardware for personal, and then for business use. There’s no way an ARM processor is going to be…

A theoretical possibility: Apple could make Bootcamp support Windows on ARM. I don't know that they'll do it, but they could and it would be interesting. The choice will also say something about how Apple views these ARM Macs: Are they iPhone-esque devices made exclusively for Apple software, or are they (relatively) open-ended computing platforms capable of booting alternate operating systems?

I don't think there is a standard BIOS for ARM like there is for x86, so multi-boot would probably require Microsoft to support Macs explicitly in Windows on ARM.

Re: Osborning the Mac, or not

#159

Post by claudeganon »

protomyth wrote: post #85
renaudg wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the Mac and iDevices revenue streams are not as independent as you imply. Driving the Mac off a cliff would alienate developers and have serious repercussions on the iOS ecosystem as well. Why do you think Apple still builds Pro apps like Logic and FCP ? They are almost certainly losing money given their ridiculously low price point, but they help with brand image and keeping the Mac the go-to platform for cr…

Driving the Mac off a cliff would alienate developers and have serious repercussions on the iOS ecosystem as well. For iOS Developers, I am not so sure. If Apple came out with Xcode for Windows at WWDC, I'm pretty sure a lot of iOS developers would be overjoyed. Now, a build farm is much easier among other advantages.

Apple is terrible at making XCode good, useable software on their own platform. I can't imagine what a nightmare it would be on Windows.

Re: Osborning the Mac, or not

#160

Post by toyg »

slantyyz wrote: post #105
jedberg wrote: post #19

Everyone here is very positive that the transition will go smoothly based on their last few transitions being fairly successful. I'm a bit more skeptical. Back then, their desktop/laptop business line was much more important to them. They needed it to go well. They were also a niche player and couldn't afford to lose more market share to PCs/Windows. But now, they barely care about their desktop/laptop revenue (being…

>> their last few transitions being fairly successful. Their last transition is specifically what brought me to the Mac after having been away for a decade. I switched to Mac exactly because they were going x86, because I knew I'd be able to virtualize Windows (although it took a year to happen), which was a win-win for me. I'm guessing a lot of people who used Windows at work plus developers on Linux wanting a nice…

I will likely switch back. I'm not an avid gamer but there are a couple of titles I really care about - and I'm pretty sure at least one of them will never make whichever transition Apple will impose, having only barely survived the 32bit massacre.

The last few years have really felt like enduring Apple more than enjoying it. It's a shame, because OSX remains great, but there is only so much it can compensate for.

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