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George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

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Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#571

Post by strgcmc »

lazyjones wrote: post #517
kthejoker2 wrote: post #412

If there ever was a case of "don't comment unless you've RTFA" this it: people extrapolating their viewpoint on a list of 700 things from watching 1, 2, 3 ... At a minimum, watch 100 videos. I did last night, only took about an hour, it's easy to find some to nitpick, some which are ambiguous ... and plenty that are totally horrifying. If you can watch 100 videos in a row from Greg Doucette's list and say, "the milit…

This is a clear attempt to manipulate opinion, I don't know why HN leaves it up. You could watch 100 videos of disgusting malpractices in restaurant kitchens and begin to think you should never eat in a restaurant again. If after watching carefully select and cut videos on a Twitter propaganda account you believe the police has a systemic issue, you're falling for the same trap. It's the same way media manipulate you…

Except that there are rules and regulations and laws about food safety, and restaurants regularly do get shut down by the health inspector if they fail to pass muster, and customers have plentiful ways to share their bad experiences and other customers will take them seriously and the restaurant will lose business as a result of their shoddy practices. In other words, there is no comparision: this system actually works decently well, all things considered. Regular folks can have high trust that, either they are eating at a clean establishment, or if it's not clean, then it will be dealt with.

Compare that to the opaqueness of police misconduct/brutality internal investigations, or how frequently even the bad actors that are known to have done wrong, are still granted their pensions. Where is the equivalent payout for a restaurant owner who doesn't follow health rules? Where do you see other restaurant owners banding together to defend a restaurateur who's had their misconduct exposed? Where do you see something equivalent to "qualified immunity" for the food industry?

In other words, this is a great example of a reasonably well-functioning market. If regulating the police behaved much more like regulating the food industry, that would actually be fantastic. In many ways, that is exactly the goal of the protests, to bring a similar level of transparency and accountability and high standards to policing, as most people already expect and has long been standard for the food industry (in developed countries).

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#572

Post by aqme28 »

lazyjones wrote: post #517
kthejoker2 wrote: post #412

If there ever was a case of "don't comment unless you've RTFA" this it: people extrapolating their viewpoint on a list of 700 things from watching 1, 2, 3 ... At a minimum, watch 100 videos. I did last night, only took about an hour, it's easy to find some to nitpick, some which are ambiguous ... and plenty that are totally horrifying. If you can watch 100 videos in a row from Greg Doucette's list and say, "the milit…

This is a clear attempt to manipulate opinion, I don't know why HN leaves it up. You could watch 100 videos of disgusting malpractices in restaurant kitchens and begin to think you should never eat in a restaurant again. If after watching carefully select and cut videos on a Twitter propaganda account you believe the police has a systemic issue, you're falling for the same trap. It's the same way media manipulate you…

> You could watch 100 videos of disgusting malpractices in restaurant kitchens and begin to think you should never eat in a restaurant again

What about just thinking that restaurants need serious reform and accountability?

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#573

Post by zepto »

tartoran wrote: post #513
SamuelAdams wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why any footage of an incident used in court must include the entire interaction. Police body cam footage can be rejected as evidence if it does not start with the officer stepping out of his vehicle. This is why so many iPhone recordings from bystanders gets thrown out in trial. Are there instances where police abuse their power? Yes. Absolutely. But it doesn't help anyone when people are cherry picking inst…

Handcuffing a lifeless freshly shot body is more than enough. I’ve seen it over and over. Why is that a policy? Second, why shoot to kill and not to incapacitate? Shoot to kill is a policy. Why is that a policy? The police rule by fear. I’ve never broken the law and yet Im really affraid of cops in the US. I know I should not have a reason to but can’t help but be intimidated by their tactics, their orders, their dem…

I am completely in support of the idea that these videos show unnecessary police brutality, I have no argument with the message here.

I just want to answer your question about shooting to kill vs incapacitate.

The first part of the answer is that nobody should shoot anyone who they don’t reasonably believe is trying to kill them. This applies to citizens or police. Generally it is the standard applied in citizen self-defense scenarios.

The second part is that shooting isn’t that easy or effective. Certainly not how it appears in the movies. It is hard to hit a 6” moving target in a stressful situation, even at relatively close range, and would require training and practice that simply isn’t available to cops. Added to this, there is no reliable place to shoot someone that will incapacitate them without also being likely to kill them. Surprisingly many people will continue to fight after being shot, so even if the cop had the ability to ‘shoot them in the leg’, for example, they would still be at risk of being killed by an aggressive adversary.

In addition, any responsible use of firearms has to take into account the environment. Handgun bullets are still lethal hundreds of meters from where they are fired. When cops miss their targets, bullets can and do kill bystanders, or ricochet or fragment and cause injury to people not even in the line of fire.

So the guidance to anyone using a gun in self defense is generally to shoot for the ‘center of mass’. This is primary because hitting the central nervous system or vital organs is the only reliable way to stop someone, but also because it’s impractical and unsafe to aim anywhere else.

None of this is meant to justify police shootings. Quite the opposite. I am just explaining why every gun use is necessarily a lethal encounter.

If a politician suggests “shooting them in the leg”, the one thing you can be certain of is that they are completely incompetent on this topic, and can not be trusted to improve matters.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#574

Post by markstos »

piokoch wrote: post #528
kthejoker2 wrote: post #412

If there ever was a case of "don't comment unless you've RTFA" this it: people extrapolating their viewpoint on a list of 700 things from watching 1, 2, 3 ... At a minimum, watch 100 videos. I did last night, only took about an hour, it's easy to find some to nitpick, some which are ambiguous ... and plenty that are totally horrifying. If you can watch 100 videos in a row from Greg Doucette's list and say, "the milit…

As a non American I am not getting this at all. In many US cities/towns sheriff is elected. In all other cases city mayor is elected. How it happens that all those mayors and sheriffs are still in the office if police brutality is such a big issue? Does this mean that people just do not care, or there is only some minority who thinks that the police is too violent and the rest is ok with that?

Police unions have considerable influence to block reform even when the elected politicians support it: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/06/us/police-unions-minneapo...

The efforts to "defund police" would solve some of the same problems that police currently address through other means. This would weaken the influence of police unions. For example, spending more to treat drug addiction as a disease rather than paying police to address possession as a crime.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#575

Post by zepto »

lazyjones wrote: post #517
kthejoker2 wrote: post #412

If there ever was a case of "don't comment unless you've RTFA" this it: people extrapolating their viewpoint on a list of 700 things from watching 1, 2, 3 ... At a minimum, watch 100 videos. I did last night, only took about an hour, it's easy to find some to nitpick, some which are ambiguous ... and plenty that are totally horrifying. If you can watch 100 videos in a row from Greg Doucette's list and say, "the milit…

This is a clear attempt to manipulate opinion, I don't know why HN leaves it up. You could watch 100 videos of disgusting malpractices in restaurant kitchens and begin to think you should never eat in a restaurant again. If after watching carefully select and cut videos on a Twitter propaganda account you believe the police has a systemic issue, you're falling for the same trap. It's the same way media manipulate you…

You seem to be saying disgusting restaurant malpractice is fine, as is police brutality, as long as we don’t look at it.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#576

Post by xyzzy_plugh »

clairity wrote: post #493
evil-olive wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US police forces seem to have a very short training Correct; some states have laws mandating training hours for barbers that are longer than that mandated for police [0]. > not centrally vetted by any federal organism As with many things in the US, these rules are mostly state-based (read: 50 different, often overlapping but also often contradictory systems) but with a patchwork of federal oversight. For example, i…

you're entirely warranted to be pissed about tear gas use, but it's misguided to expect quick and accurate federal redress, as the executive function intentionally doesn't cover state or local jurisdictions. states run themselves, and the federal judiciary basically only steps in when state/local governments don't follow their own rules (the presumed expression of the will of the people) or violate the constitution.…

> you want power local and limited, not consolidated and far away. that would only make things like use of force worse.

Maybe in your country but in many, many places in the world this is demonstrably not the case.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#577

Post by lazyjones »

ses1984 wrote: post #561
lazyjones wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the analogous conclusion from this to police brutality videos? You watch 100 and begin to think you should never talk to a cop again? You can do better than this rhetoric question. The analogous conclusion would be that there is a systemic issue with the police and you'd prefer not to deal with them again, by defunding or dissolving the police force (seems to be a current wish by many). > Sure you can post u…

How many videos of police brutality do you need to watch before it's ok to conclude reform is needed?

That's not how it works. The state of the police force isn't assessed by watching selected videos.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#578

Post by cm2187 »

camillomiller wrote: post #340
jagrsw wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in EU (where, generally, the police is trained to minimize-harm, rather than take-control-by-all-means), and I feel a bit the same about this list; a sizeable share of those videos show regular-ish riot control techniques IMO (pushing the crowd down the street etc.). Then, many show police overreaction or outright brutality. But, then, why mix all of those in one big list and call them simply 'brutality'? As m…

I live in Berlin. Police gets indicted for drawing a gun, let alone use it. And that’s the way it should be. Not all incidents are the same, but so is the feeling of being above any law that Us police officers enjoy and enforce

I presume you meant "investigated" not "indicted".

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#579

Post by bhandziuk »

tlear wrote: post #552
tartoran wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Handcuffing a lifeless freshly shot body is more than enough. I’ve seen it over and over. Why is that a policy? Second, why shoot to kill and not to incapacitate? Shoot to kill is a policy. Why is that a policy? The police rule by fear. I’ve never broken the law and yet Im really affraid of cops in the US. I know I should not have a reason to but can’t help but be intimidated by their tactics, their orders, their dem…

1. Simple. People go into shock look incapacitated, then come out of it. People get pumped with a dozen rounds and keep fighting. 2. Have you ever shot a gun? Have you ever shot a pistol? Now to simulate the Andrenaline dump run few sprints then try again. You CAN NOT shoot to disable this is not a Hollywood movie, it does not work. Most people can’t hit anything past few meters away with a pistol. Gun is not a taser…

Then they shouldn't have a gun at all

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#580

Post by bakuninsbart »

hajile wrote: post #564
tartoran wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Handcuffing a lifeless freshly shot body is more than enough. I’ve seen it over and over. Why is that a policy? Second, why shoot to kill and not to incapacitate? Shoot to kill is a policy. Why is that a policy? The police rule by fear. I’ve never broken the law and yet Im really affraid of cops in the US. I know I should not have a reason to but can’t help but be intimidated by their tactics, their orders, their dem…

It's obvious that you've never even shot a gun before. Pistols aren't particularly accurate in a shooting range even if you take lots of time to aim. With a moving target, adrenaline, and all the other factors in an actual situation, you're going to be lucky if all your shots even make contact with the target. Where do you aim if you want to "shoot to incapacitate"? No such place exists on the body. Even using small,…

Americans certainly know more than western/northern Europe about shooting people, but police here is trained to shoot to incapacitate, and it generally seems to work, as the fatality rate of police shootings is only about half as high as in the US.
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