George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter • Hacker News Board

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#491

Post by aaanotherhnfolk » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:15 PM UTC

fareesh wrote: post #462

From what I understand, all of these people are breaking curfew and ignoring instructions to leave the area, and in some cases are acting belligerent when confronted, and this is happening at scale. Is the expectation that curfew is an order that should not be enforced in the strictest sense? From what I could see on the news, parts of your country were being burned down and looted by some rogue elements who used the…

Sorry things in your country are worse.

Few issues with the straightforward narrative you present.

Cops will slowly corral protestors as curfew draws near by setting up blockades or raising drawbridges. Peaceful protestors want to go home but can't. They're confused, and then curfew hits and police begin loading them into wagons. It's not as simple as get home by curfew.

Cops will infiltrate and instigate protests using a variety of tactics, the goal being to escalate tension, and justify the amount of force the cops wish to use.

Similar to your stated preference, they can't wait to be able to justify beating citizens with an overwhelming show of force. It's the fastest way back to status quo. A status quo you admit is broken, but worth using violence to return to. There's a catch-22 in your reasoning here you might be able to poke at.

Body cams and other forms of accountability do not work because the disciplinary board is not independent and not impartial.

Perhaps our countries aren't so different.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#492

Post by hef19898 » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:17 PM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #443

fnord123 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is one UK example which is actually a counter example where the police allowed a statue to be destroyed instead of intervening and creating a potentially dangerous altercation.

So they allowed a mob to circumvent the legislative/democratic process of monument removal and it's an example of a "good" action? Mobs are not the law.

Risk management. Allowing htem to tear it down vs. intervening with force to safe a piece of metal on a piece of rock. The latter can be put back up. The former carrers quite a risk for everyone involved. Sunds like a reasonable call to me.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#493

Post by clairity » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:18 PM UTC

evil-olive wrote: post #382

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a complete outsider to US reality, to me looking in, it seems like there is a real issue of training regarding de-escalating techniques. US police forces seem to have a very short training which, as far as I understand is not centrally vetted by any federal organism? And considering the short training time it seems to be mostly focused on tactical and firearm training. Compare that with European forces and you see…

> US police forces seem to have a very short training Correct; some states have laws mandating training hours for barbers that are longer than that mandated for police [0]. > not centrally vetted by any federal organism As with many things in the US, these rules are mostly state-based (read: 50 different, often overlapping but also often contradictory systems) but with a patchwork of federal oversight. For example, i…

you're entirely warranted to be pissed about tear gas use, but it's misguided to expect quick and accurate federal redress, as the executive function intentionally doesn't cover state or local jurisdictions.

states run themselves, and the federal judiciary basically only steps in when state/local governments don't follow their own rules (the presumed expression of the will of the people) or violate the constitution. the constrained executive response follows from the judiciary (and sometimes the legislature).

and that's the way it should be. you want power local and limited, not consolidated and far away. that would only make things like use of force worse.

so the immediate appeal to authority should be to the local, and then state, judiciary and legislature stepping in with corrective actions. the feds aren't of much use here. they're intentionally a line of last (and slow) resort.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#494

Post by vertex-four » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:20 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #432

DeonPenny wrote: post #65

The fact that is even possible is insane. Imagine there being over 700 videos of pilots messing up in one month, 700 crane operator mishaps in a month, 700+ food poising by a chain in a month. The also imagine you believe there's no problem. This is Ba Sing Se levels of delusion for some people.

How about 2,300 vehicular deaths a month? Or 2,300 gun deaths a month? Because those numbers have been consistent for decades. Oh, but those aren't the same thing, so they're irrelevant? That's fine, because the examples you gave (pilots, crane operators, fast food chains) also have nothing to do with one another. Not the same number of operators, not the same jobs, not the same safety systems, not the same number of…

If those numbers have been consistent for decades despite the police being given harsher and harsher tools for dealing with them, perhaps those tools aren't doing anything but resulting in harm to people who are not committing those crimes.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#495

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:21 PM UTC

meheleventyone wrote: post #383

jagrsw wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in EU (where, generally, the police is trained to minimize-harm, rather than take-control-by-all-means), and I feel a bit the same about this list; a sizeable share of those videos show regular-ish riot control techniques IMO (pushing the crowd down the street etc.). Then, many show police overreaction or outright brutality. But, then, why mix all of those in one big list and call them simply 'brutality'? As m…

With use of force it doesn't matter if the techniques were ones we're used to it matters whether they are warranted by the situation. One isn't usually obliged to push crowds down the street. Using correct technique in the wrong situation is just as bad as using excessive force when using force is warranted.

But it's impossible to tell, from just a video of a crowd being pushed down the street, whether or not there's a good reason they need to be moved.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#496

Post by Miner49er » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:22 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #242

yowlingcat wrote: post #147

We might not be able to agree about everything, but can we at least agree that it's in everyone's best interest to have an increasing amount of the world have a generally secure, stable, unconditional personal access to food, housing, education, healthcare, and a labor market and can lives in a society with reasonable laws that they can practically obey? Even if we don't contribute to that personally, can we at least…

> Can we just admit to ourselves that a lot of global military expenditure is just a certain kind of make work? Being the imperial power has vast benefits, do you think Rome ruled its provinces just so they had a way to spend money? Being the global power is literally worth money. It's hard to say how much, but I'm pretty sure it's larger than your military expenses. That said, I'd love to see the US cut back, becaus…

While I agree it's worth money, I'm skeptical that the average American sees any of that money.

All the money made being an imperial power just lines the pockets of the rich.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#497

Post by pjc50 » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:22 PM UTC

jpxw wrote: post #302

sschueller wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland has a lot of guns yet we don't have this police issue here.

How many police are killed in Switzerland per year?

The total murder rate in Switzerland appears to be less than 200 per year; you're welcome to try to find more stats in this if you speak German: https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/de/home.assetdetail.11147486.ht...

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#498

Post by criddell » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:23 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #366

Some ideas: - Less immunity, and discharge without pension for blatant violations, for example being caught on camera hiding a badge, or deliberately bumping into someone to be able to argue that they were "assaulted". - Longer police traning. A 6-12months is how long you should train to be an unarmed mall security guy. Two or three years for a policeman seems like a minimum if you want qualified officers. - Federal…

I would also like to see either a narrowing of the scope of the kinds of things the police are expected to handle or a broadening of the kinds of professionals employed as police.

There are plenty of calls where a mental health professional should either handle the situation entirely or at least be the one calling the shots.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#499

Post by bcrosby95 » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:24 PM UTC

vbezhenar wrote: post #256

tprice7 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc... The rate of police killings is vastly higher in the US than any other Western country. So something is going on there that is not a universal phenomenon.

People in US have too many guns. Cops are afraid for their life and use preventive violence.

Yet police have one of the safer jobs in the USA. Loggers, fisherman, roofers, truckers, farmers, and construction workers all hold more dangerous jobs than police. A police officer is more likely to die in an accident (car or otherwise) than by violence.

And despite this, it's continually hammered home into their heads that they have a very, very dangerous job. Yeah, you're correct, it's fear from the lies told to them.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#500

Post by mmsimanga » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 1:24 PM UTC

DebtDeflation wrote: post #463

ashtonkem wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve reached the point where the problem is more than just the equipment, it’s the culture. There are way too many cases where a cop provokes a confrontation, often by stopping to allow someone else nearby to run into them, and every other cop in the group responds by beating anyone nearby and shoving back anyone with a camera. You don’t get coordinated responses like that without planning and practice.

>I’ve reached the point where the problem is more than just the equipment, it’s the culture. This is absolutely true, but the problem goes much deeper than just the police force itself. We seem to want to solve every imaginable social problem with police/courts/prisons. Drug abuse needs to be viewed as a public health problem, not a criminal problem. Homelessness as a housing and mental health problem, not a criminal…

This! In my country there was a push back by teacher unions because the expectations on teachers has grown over the years. Laws now prohibit many forms of punishment, some schools now have metal detectors at the gate to stop students coming in with knives.