Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early • Hacker News Board

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#131

Post by cirno » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 8:22 AM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #98

cirno wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This won't be a popular statement, but archivers don't have a legal right to reproduce websites, either. I imagine archive.today is on even shakier ground via bypassing newspaper paywalls. archive.org operates under an opt-out policy which is not how copyright works, and archive.today operates under a "f### you" policy. It's just that website operators haven't chosen to take legal action against this practice. I unde…

The problem is that it basically doesn't work on an opt-in basis. So archive.org has worked by making it easier to opt-out than actually taking legal action.

Unfortunately, a lot of things are more troublesome when you follow the law.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#132

Post by posterboy » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 8:36 AM UTC

random_savv wrote: post #126

Denvercoder9 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can also scan a hardcopy obtained from a library. It works because most people want to follow the law, don't care or don't bother.

Except it takes hours to scan a hardcopy. > Thus readers can lend a book for a second, and keep a copy of it forever under their control Unless you were referring to this; in this case, how is this _Controlled_ Digital Lending?

there are machines to speed it up, but as it usually this, it only reaches a threshold when everybody, could and would buy it on the cheap.

Nevertheless, controled purchase would be out of the question in your case, too, would it? Or is that controled inasmuch digital lending can be persued?

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#133

Post by ketzu » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 9:00 AM UTC

oska wrote: post #101

geofft wrote: post #8

> We moved up our schedule because, last Monday, four commercial publishers chose to sue Internet Archive during a global pandemic. Did this come as a surprise? Did Internet Archive not expect publishers to sue? The Archive launched the emergency library during a global pandemic. Lots of people, myself included, said that this was a risky move because they would obviously get sued and it would put not only the Archiv…

Your last paragraph suffers from hyperbolic rhetoric and a faultful analogy (common with arguments from analogy). A librarian offering to photocopy a book for you is incurring cost of resources (the paper used for the photocopy) and giving you an inferior copy (not bound and nicely finished). Neither of those apply with a digital copy, which is essentially cost-free to make and indistinguishable from the source. And…

The problem with arguments from analogy are that people often just try to figure out some way in which the analogy doesn't work, instead of challenging the point it made. Which is easy, otherwise it would be a terrible analogy.

In this case, copying a book has cost and reduces quality, are not related to the point of the analogy, even though they differ from digital copys.

Given your last paragraph, it seems that the you and the original comment disagree on what a library is.

In the end, like in your second paragraph, it doesn't really matter what we currently think a library is and what we want to make of it. And that's an important discussion.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#134

Post by ketzu » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 9:08 AM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #90

geofft wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes sense, at a high level. Should we cancel copyright before this system is well-established and stable? It seems like there could be arguments for it, if copyright is indeed a great abuse, but if it's not, it seems like it would be systematically better to establish the new system in parallel with copyright, and then we could argue not only that copyright is bad but it's no longer necessary. Is copyright in fact…

I've been warned about repetitive ideological discussion on HN so I should probably not elaborate on the matter. I do agree with you though. These are all important points that should be addressed. I do not know the answers to these questions. I sincerely hope someone smarter than me will be able to come up with really good answers. I just think that we can't go on like this. Copyright is based on a lie: artificial s…

> In order to enforce copyright in the 21st century, computing freedom must be sacrificed.

Actually, with the lack of copyright, they might just go the route of software anyways: Book-as-a-Service, Steam-for-books, license checks whenever you startup your book.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#135

Post by ketzu » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 9:33 AM UTC

different-guy wrote: post #19

jawns wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you propose that the authors of creative works be paid for their efforts, outside of copyright?

I propose that they do it out of love, and not for money. There will be less trash on the market and more high quality work.

A lot of trash is created by people who do it out of love. Cases include fanfics, youtube videos and videogames. (I am personally guilty of producing trash in all of these categories.)

Also, a lot of people love trash.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#136

Post by ketzu » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 9:37 AM UTC

linuxhansl wrote: post #41

Is it just me or are DRM controlled ebooks a complete scam?! Consider: 1. Ebooks go through great length to make the information behave like a physical book. 2. Libraries have to buy as many licenses as they can plan to lend our concurrently 3. Licenses will even expire after a bit, because that's what real book do, they wear of. So far so good (if your goal is to simulate real books). But now: 1. Wanna give your ebo…

This is not limited to ebooks, it is present in all modern digital distribution, especially in software.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#137

Post by kalleboo » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 9:46 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #8

> We moved up our schedule because, last Monday, four commercial publishers chose to sue Internet Archive during a global pandemic. Did this come as a surprise? Did Internet Archive not expect publishers to sue? The Archive launched the emergency library during a global pandemic. Lots of people, myself included, said that this was a risky move because they would obviously get sued and it would put not only the Archiv…

> If I go to my local library and the librarian says "Actually don't bother checking this out, I'll just photocopy the whole book for you and you can keep it," I'm not sure I'd call that a library

The NEL lendings still expire after 2 weeks using the same DRM as before, it’s not the same as downloading a free copy for life.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#138

Post by oska » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 10:12 AM UTC

ketzu wrote: post #133

oska wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last paragraph suffers from hyperbolic rhetoric and a faultful analogy (common with arguments from analogy). A librarian offering to photocopy a book for you is incurring cost of resources (the paper used for the photocopy) and giving you an inferior copy (not bound and nicely finished). Neither of those apply with a digital copy, which is essentially cost-free to make and indistinguishable from the source. And…

The problem with arguments from analogy are that people often just try to figure out some way in which the analogy doesn't work, instead of challenging the point it made. Which is easy, otherwise it would be a terrible analogy. In this case, copying a book has cost and reduces quality, are not related to the point of the analogy, even though they differ from digital copys. Given your last paragraph, it seems that the…

Arguments from analogy can be useful to infer some possible further similarity. So as a creative, inductive process.

But using an argument from analogy to say why something can't or shouldn't be done is yes, as you say, problematic, because it's 1) usually easy to pick apart the analogy but also because 2) it's intellectually dubious and lacking in rigour.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#139

Post by tikititaki » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 10:34 AM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #117

matheusmoreira wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's a good way to ensure that authors continue to author books while not dying Authors should be paid for the act of writing, not the sale of the resulting work. > How do we implement that system? Crowdfunding and patronage seem to be gaining traction these days.

This seems like a great way of making sure that only popular pulpy books get written, in the same way that the cannibalization of the classified ads space mostly resulted in traditional media turning clickbaity.

I don't think it would be effectively any different than right now. Majority of the content is 'pulpy' right now and then there are a million niches filling the demand. It would likely be no different.

Just look at all the types of people that support themselves through patreon. There are many different types of people, and some of them are incredibly niche. Some are technical, some are artistic.

Really, the demand in the market would be same, so there would be similar content. The only real difference is we are killing the middleman who profits needlessly.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#140

Post by a1369209993 » Mon, Jun 15, 2020, 10:55 AM UTC

iJohnDoe wrote: post #103

This might be an unpopular opinion, but here goes anyways. I know there are some on HN that share this unpopular opinion. The IA treated this situation and decision like they’ve treated all their decisions. They archive data without permission. They share this archived data without permission. They have no official instructions on how to remove data from their archive. There are some flimsy instructions about robot r…

Yes, that's what a library is. We don't give book-burners a pass just because they pressured the author into agreeing with them. Why should we make a exception just because it's a website being destroyed rather than a book?