Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

blog.archive.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 150 posts

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#121

Post by nordsieck »

Reelin wrote: post #118
nordsieck wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honestly I'm not at all clear what a cohesive argument against CDL would look like. The argument is simple. Copyright allows the copyright holder to enjoin anyone else from making a copy of a work - including a digital copy. Essentially all software works by making copies of data that is uses. The first sale doctrine doesn't apply (IMO) because it sets limitations on the rights of a copyright holder to a particular…

I'll agree that your interpretation is the correct one if everything is taken completely literally. That being said, it seems like the ultimate end run around otherwise well established law surrounding books. As you noted essentially all software works in this way. Throwing out all established laws and end user rights "because digital" hardly seems reasonable to me. How does such a line of argument square with the fa…

> How does such a line of argument square with the fact that even making personal use of a digital item inevitably involves multiple copy operations on a local device in the best case? Even moving it between two partitions on the same device involves copying it.

Most digital goods are "sold" as a copyright license.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#122

Post by enriquto »

geofft wrote: post #8

> We moved up our schedule because, last Monday, four commercial publishers chose to sue Internet Archive during a global pandemic. Did this come as a surprise? Did Internet Archive not expect publishers to sue? The Archive launched the emergency library during a global pandemic. Lots of people, myself included, said that this was a risky move because they would obviously get sued and it would put not only the Archiv…

This thing "Controlled Digital Lending" is either impossible or tyrannical. In either case, it is idiotic to pretend it to be a solution to anything.

Controlled Digital Lending is impossible because if someone can read a page of text on their computer, then they can also scan the whole book automatically. Thus readers can lend a book for a second, and keep a copy of it forever under their control. Once they have a copy, they can share it privately with other people at no cost.

Pretending that Controlled Digital Lending is possible is tyrannical because it requires that people not be able to run arbitrary software on their computers, and that they cannot communicate privately between them. As long as general computing devices are available and that private communication is possible, Controlled Digital Lending is a physical impossibility.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#123

Post by Denvercoder9 »

enriquto wrote: post #122
geofft wrote: post #8

> We moved up our schedule because, last Monday, four commercial publishers chose to sue Internet Archive during a global pandemic. Did this come as a surprise? Did Internet Archive not expect publishers to sue? The Archive launched the emergency library during a global pandemic. Lots of people, myself included, said that this was a risky move because they would obviously get sued and it would put not only the Archiv…

This thing "Controlled Digital Lending" is either impossible or tyrannical. In either case, it is idiotic to pretend it to be a solution to anything. Controlled Digital Lending is impossible because if someone can read a page of text on their computer, then they can also scan the whole book automatically. Thus readers can lend a book for a second, and keep a copy of it forever under their control. Once they have a co…

You can also scan a hardcopy obtained from a library. It works because most people want to follow the law, don't care or don't bother.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#124

Post by enriquto »

Denvercoder9 wrote: post #123
enriquto wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thing "Controlled Digital Lending" is either impossible or tyrannical. In either case, it is idiotic to pretend it to be a solution to anything. Controlled Digital Lending is impossible because if someone can read a page of text on their computer, then they can also scan the whole book automatically. Thus readers can lend a book for a second, and keep a copy of it forever under their control. Once they have a co…

You can also scan a hardcopy obtained from a library. It works because most people want to follow the law, don't care or don't bother.

Sure, you can, and it is alright. You would not accept a policeman controlling all your movements at home just to prevent you from scanning the book; would you?

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#125

Post by mulmen »

generationP wrote: post #36
geofft wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since we'd be moving from legal protection to technical protection, would we also figure out some technical means whereby this would be accessible by Internet Archive only? Or would all of us be given a way to publish anything we want in a way that makes it accessible to the whole world but no government can impede? Would that then include sealed court records, intimate photos, performance reviews, credit card number…

We have such havens already, and if the choice is between the Internet Archive plus everyone's naked pics or none of the two, I'd still vote for the former.

“What you post on the web lasts forever” is a warning, not a promise.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#126

Post by random_savv »

Denvercoder9 wrote: post #123
enriquto wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thing "Controlled Digital Lending" is either impossible or tyrannical. In either case, it is idiotic to pretend it to be a solution to anything. Controlled Digital Lending is impossible because if someone can read a page of text on their computer, then they can also scan the whole book automatically. Thus readers can lend a book for a second, and keep a copy of it forever under their control. Once they have a co…

You can also scan a hardcopy obtained from a library. It works because most people want to follow the law, don't care or don't bother.

Except it takes hours to scan a hardcopy.

> Thus readers can lend a book for a second, and keep a copy of it forever under their control Unless you were referring to this; in this case, how is this _Controlled_ Digital Lending?

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#127

Post by fsflover »

linuxhansl wrote: post #41

Is it just me or are DRM controlled ebooks a complete scam?! Consider: 1. Ebooks go through great length to make the information behave like a physical book. 2. Libraries have to buy as many licenses as they can plan to lend our concurrently 3. Licenses will even expire after a bit, because that's what real book do, they wear of. So far so good (if your goal is to simulate real books). But now: 1. Wanna give your ebo…

https://www.defectivebydesign.org/guide

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#128

Post by fsflover »

jMyles wrote: post #3

Figuring out how to move projects like IA to a configuration where they are beyond the reach of the state, but still universally accessible, is one of the most important open issues of the internet today.

I2P can be the solution here. It has been working for years, although slow by design.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#129

Post by starfallg »

nordsieck wrote: post #116
Reelin wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you steal from someone for years without being caught Wait, what? Who said anything about stealing? Publishers might try to argue piracy but CDL doesn't seem to fit that either on account of the DRM. Honestly I'm not at all clear what a cohesive argument against CDL would look like. Given the first sale doctrine it wouldn't even surprise me if some of the current ebook pricing practices were actually illegal.

> Honestly I'm not at all clear what a cohesive argument against CDL would look like. The argument is simple. Copyright allows the copyright holder to enjoin anyone else from making a copy of a work - including a digital copy. Essentially all software works by making copies of data that is uses. The first sale doctrine doesn't apply (IMO) because it sets limitations on the rights of a copyright holder to a particular…

There is a strong argument that the first sale doctrine should be applied to the license granting the use of digital goods rather than the actual copy (which is undecipherable in its physical form to us anyway and require a lot of additional copying within a computer to produce the pulses of light that we can read, for example). The license is the meaningful legal construct in which the content is accessed.

The EU has already done this since the ECJ ruling in 2012, and the US is behind the curve.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#130

Post by cirno »

judge2020 wrote: post #119
cirno wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This won't be a popular statement, but archivers don't have a legal right to reproduce websites, either. I imagine archive.today is on even shakier ground via bypassing newspaper paywalls. archive.org operates under an opt-out policy which is not how copyright works, and archive.today operates under a "f### you" policy. It's just that website operators haven't chosen to take legal action against this practice. I unde…

> archive.today operates under a "f### you" policy. They are initiating a save on behalf of the user(a "user agent"), and thus are not a robot, so they don't need to respect robots.txt.

> so they don't need to respect robots.txt

You mean they don't need to respect copyright law? So it would seem.

If a user wants a legal copy, they can choose File -> Save Page As. The copying isn't the problem, the reproduction without ads or paywalls or respect to the owner's copyright is.

Post reply on HN