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Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

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Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#111
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (or, more practically, that authors continue to author books instead of deciding to go work at a tech company or something) Have you done or read research to suggest this is something to worry about? There are other concerns certainly. But I have trouble understanding how someone who has ever visited Wikipedia or visited github could even ask this question. It sure sounds like a conceptual anachronism to me. (Thoug…

I think if you talked to most authors and asked "would you still do this if it were unpaid" you'd get almost entirely "no"s. Do you expect otherwise?

The question isn’t whether they’d work for free, it’s whether they’d work if it was impossible to generate revenue through enforceable copyrights. We know that even under these conditions, some authors would work for free, others would be paid by companies that benefit from their work other than through the sale of licensed copies, and still others would be paid by patrons and governments. It’s impossible to say whether the loss of all new works that don’t fall into these categories would outweigh the gain of all existing creative works becoming available for unlimited free use, but we can be pretty confident that there would still be more new creative works (perhaps of lower average quality) than any person could consume in a lifetime.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#112
post #107
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In order to enforce copyright in the 21st century, computing freedom must be sacrificed. I'm not sure this is true. The publishers aren't demanding that Internet Archive add DRM to their e-books - they're demanding that Internet Archive stop distributing them entirely. I can certainly imagine a world where DRM-free e-books are the norm and unlicensed distribution is limited only by legal threat and not by technical…

> how do we get the benefits of the GPL - especially receiving things like source code - if we no longer have copyright? It’s not obvious to me that enforceable copyleft licences have increased the availability of free software to such an extent as to outweigh the loss of freedom effected by normal copyrights. Abolishing copyright (or less radically, rejecting the prevailing interpretation of copyright law which says…

> It’s not obvious to me that enforceable copyleft licences have increased the availability of free software to such an extent as to outweigh the loss of freedom effected by normal copyrights.

I think this was probably more of a critical mass sort of thing. Historically, it seems like copyleft licenses (and perhaps even GCC's horribly byzantine internal architecture) probably played a key role in getting free software off the ground. Once you have sufficient mind share though it no longer seems to be as necessary.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#113
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’d blame publishers for paying so poorly That's exactly what you should do. You should have been adequately compensated for the time and effort required to write your book. Instead, your publisher decided to require you to put the work in first and then offer you the chance to get compensated afterwards based on how well your book sold. The expected results didn't materialize because the market conditions that ena…

> The world has changed. We're living in the 21st century. It costs $0 to make and distribute copies of information. Only the costs associated with creating the first copy must be paid for. That's not really a change. Previously, the physical costs of copying were higher (paper, ink, labor, etc.), but none of that was a royalty to the author. For an expensive textbook, it was always cheaper to print a pirated copy of…

The Temporary National Emergency Library illustrates the qualitative difference between $0 and $10. It would never have been feasible to make print copies of an entire library collection instantly available to billions of people.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#114
post #8

> We moved up our schedule because, last Monday, four commercial publishers chose to sue Internet Archive during a global pandemic. Did this come as a surprise? Did Internet Archive not expect publishers to sue? The Archive launched the emergency library during a global pandemic. Lots of people, myself included, said that this was a risky move because they would obviously get sued and it would put not only the Archiv…

> Publishers and authors alike like physical libraries because when more people check out books from libraries, more copies get purchased. I don't think they like libraries per se, they've just made peace with the first sale doctrine. On the upside, libraries are a stable source of demand for new books. On the downside, libraries' collection are generally used more intensely than private collections - each book in a…

"each book in a library displaces more than one private sale"

There's no way to prove this. You can't just look at someone borrowing a book from a library and say they would have bought it had the library not been there, They might just have never read the book.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#115
post #97
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I think I deserve for free is the ability to decide whether a book is worth the price or not. This is simple in a bookstore, but when I’m online the default seems to be that I have to shell out to even take a look.

Many ebooks have some degree of preview. In some cases, it's imperfect, but it seems overall at least roughly equivalent to a bookstore.

It’s not roughly equivalent. I often look at the free previews on Amazon and Google Books to check print citations or read a few pages from a chapter of interest, but usually the pages I want to read are unavailable. An online equivalent to bookstores is not possible because there’s no way to glare at a customer for treating the store as a library.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#116
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like, you didn't challenge it for decades, it's gotten an established place in society, no dice? 1. After some quick searching, I don't think CDL has been ongoing for anywhere close to "decades". 2. Some IP like trademark can be lost if it isn't defended. I do not believe that is true for copyright. 3. In general, this is not the way law works. If you steal from someone for years without being caught, you don't cre…

> If you steal from someone for years without being caught Wait, what? Who said anything about stealing? Publishers might try to argue piracy but CDL doesn't seem to fit that either on account of the DRM. Honestly I'm not at all clear what a cohesive argument against CDL would look like. Given the first sale doctrine it wouldn't even surprise me if some of the current ebook pricing practices were actually illegal.

> Honestly I'm not at all clear what a cohesive argument against CDL would look like.

The argument is simple. Copyright allows the copyright holder to enjoin anyone else from making a copy of a work - including a digital copy. Essentially all software works by making copies of data that is uses.

The first sale doctrine doesn't apply (IMO) because it sets limitations on the rights of a copyright holder to a particular copy of a work after it has been sold. Each "loan" of an ebook is a fresh copy.

If you look at the Controlled Digital Lending website[1], they pin most of the legal legitimacy on fair use, not first sale doctrine, which I think is probably much more solid legal footing.

___

1. https://controlleddigitallending.org/

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#117
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with you in principle, but it's the system we have. So, 1) What's a good way to ensure that authors continue to author books while not dying of exposure (or, more practically, that authors continue to author books instead of deciding to go work at a tech company or something)? 2) How do we implement that system?

> What's a good way to ensure that authors continue to author books while not dying Authors should be paid for the act of writing, not the sale of the resulting work. > How do we implement that system? Crowdfunding and patronage seem to be gaining traction these days.

This seems like a great way of making sure that only popular pulpy books get written, in the same way that the cannibalization of the classified ads space mostly resulted in traditional media turning clickbaity.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#118
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you steal from someone for years without being caught Wait, what? Who said anything about stealing? Publishers might try to argue piracy but CDL doesn't seem to fit that either on account of the DRM. Honestly I'm not at all clear what a cohesive argument against CDL would look like. Given the first sale doctrine it wouldn't even surprise me if some of the current ebook pricing practices were actually illegal.

> Honestly I'm not at all clear what a cohesive argument against CDL would look like. The argument is simple. Copyright allows the copyright holder to enjoin anyone else from making a copy of a work - including a digital copy. Essentially all software works by making copies of data that is uses. The first sale doctrine doesn't apply (IMO) because it sets limitations on the rights of a copyright holder to a particular…

I'll agree that your interpretation is the correct one if everything is taken completely literally.

That being said, it seems like the ultimate end run around otherwise well established law surrounding books. As you noted essentially all software works in this way. Throwing out all established laws and end user rights "because digital" hardly seems reasonable to me.

How does such a line of argument square with the fact that even making personal use of a digital item inevitably involves multiple copy operations on a local device in the best case? Even moving it between two partitions on the same device involves copying it. (I suppose I should just be grateful that the digital overlords saw fit to grant me permission to move things between logical volumes. /s)

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#119
post #93

The Internet Archive is so incredibly important. There’s a lot of different views about the purpose of life or lack thereof, but for all except a few beliefs, having access to past writings is very important. Humanity is only at the very beginning of its existence. The success or failure of projects like the Internet Archive will drastically change our future. If you think the loss of the Internet Archive won’t signi…

This won't be a popular statement, but archivers don't have a legal right to reproduce websites, either. I imagine archive.today is on even shakier ground via bypassing newspaper paywalls. archive.org operates under an opt-out policy which is not how copyright works, and archive.today operates under a "f### you" policy. It's just that website operators haven't chosen to take legal action against this practice. I unde…

> archive.today operates under a "f### you" policy.

They are initiating a save on behalf of the user(a "user agent"), and thus are not a robot, so they don't need to respect robots.txt.

Re: Temporary National Emergency Library to close 2 weeks early

#120
If the "library" division of Internet Archive is engaging in book-related activity that puts the 501c3 non-profit donation-funded web and public domain ARCHIVE at risk, perhaps IA should be legally separated into two organizations.

There is no reason for humanity's digital web of Alexandria to be burned for a dispute with book publishers who have no legal claim on the contents of the Wayback machine.

The many people who donated to Internet Archive were doing so primarily to preserve materials that were unavailable elsewhere, e.g. lost websites. They were not primarily donating money to enable lending of currently published books, which are widely available via multiple channels.

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