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ZFS Removes References to Slavery

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Re: ZFS Removes References to Slavery

#121

Post by [deleted] »

mikecoles wrote: post #117
Separo wrote: post #66

I knew there would be these petty comments in here. For people who in general work in such an intellectual and ephemeral pursuit there is so much pathetic clinging to meaningless terms. The computer does not care. It's only the human beings in the community that do. And it's our choice whether to be neutral and inclusive or miserly trolls clinging to meaningless out of date terms coined in times when these weren't co…

"meaningless terms" - It's also our choice to avoid working with those who exhibit theatrical intolerance and objection to such "meaningless terms". "Embrace other people's experiences" such as what? How many in the IT field have experience as a master or slave (other than kinks)? None. Pointless changing of words because of "feelings" is why the majority is laughing at you behind your back. If there is something you…

[deleted]

Re: ZFS Removes References to Slavery

#122

Post by ksaj »

quasarj wrote: post #18
Hamuko wrote: post #6

Meanwhile searching for the term "kill" returns 75 code results in openzfs/zfs.

Well, there's nothing discriminatory about killing. We kill everyone eventually!

In the terminal it isn't all that rare to talk about killing children, sometimes even immediately after spawning. It might be a cultural warning on how an uncontrolled child, separated from its parent, could easily become a zombie. Not sure.

Re: ZFS Removes References to Slavery

#123

Post by boltzmann_brain »

Merem wrote: post #54
boltzmann_brain wrote: post #7

We're witnessing mass insanity on levels never thought possible.

Some people just have too much time on their hands. And it doesn't help that media is spreading this, as it generates clicks which in turn generates money. As such, total non-issues will be made an issue. The thing is, it's not even "mass" insanity. Working people who are busy with a family and such don't really post on social media, as they simply have no time. This creates a pretty large divide between the internet…

Invest in entry level jobs for poor communities and education resources? Nah.

Fuck up software by changing names uses for decades? Perfect!

These people are literally children.

Re: ZFS Removes References to Slavery

#125

Post by trav4225 »

quasarj wrote: post #18
Hamuko wrote: post #6

Meanwhile searching for the term "kill" returns 75 code results in openzfs/zfs.

Well, there's nothing discriminatory about killing. We kill everyone eventually!

discrimination: bad; killing: not a problem?

Edit: I'm not being snarky. I truly don't understand this distinction.

Re: ZFS Removes References to Slavery

#126

Post by ksaj »

I don't know if it counts, but I've noticed the use of Top Chef instead of Master Chef more and more often these days.

On the other hand, you have "old masters" referring to great historical artists or colloquially, their artwork, "Masters" referring to golf tournaments, "mastery" when you get better at something over time, etc. None of these connect to a slave concept.

The word slave, on the other hand, is more problematic since it doesn't have those other contexts, and always means some sort of subservience. We already went through this exact exercise back when multiple hard drives were referred to as a single master and however many slaves. We still call it a Master Boot Record, but any other boot sectors don't get called slaves anymore.

Primary is a perfectly fine word that we're already using in this context nowadays. I'd be perfectly happy if we didn't have a dozen names for the same things. Everything else is secondary.

Re: ZFS Removes References to Slavery

#127

Post by artistsvoid »

ashtonkem wrote: post #76
artistsvoid wrote: post #60

I will try to avoid controversy here and word this carefully: I can't help but think that something is wrong in the minds of people who take offense at something like this. If in the context of programming and system administration, the term master/slave is 'offensive' and makes you think of racism, and one group of people being oppressed by another, your mind seems to make some completely different connections from…

This seems to me to miss the point. I genuinely doubt that many people are offended at master/slave terminology. I personally am not offended, yet I would prefer if we did not use such terms. Why? Because words matter, and I recognize that where we decide to move terms into every day parlance has an impact on how people think. This after all is the basis of some groups trying to “reclaim” a word by trivializing it’s…

Thank you for this well written non-inflammatory response, I really appreciate it. I can see your point, but I guess we just have a different idea 'how high' sensitivity should be.

Obviously you don't name something in programming 'pimp' / 'bitch', or even more extreme I suppose: 'white_guard' / 'n_____', that's obviously childish, unwarranted, and just for the sake of provocation. Like I've said though I think of 'master/slave' as perfectly fine descriptions regarding their function and I have always thought of them as racially neutral terms, and if you want to change long-standing naming convention there should be a case for it. And I just think it isn't there.

By the way: For the very first time in my life, a few days ago, have I ever thought of 'whitelist'/'blacklist' in terms of skin color.

white vs black, bright vs dark, , "shining bright light" vs "tempted by darkness", etc, it was almost a Eureka moment: "How can people think of skin color there?"

That makes me think that people are spurted into activism, blindly 'looking for problems', and once you start looking it's easy to see it everywhere. We are pattern seeking animals - if I believe in conspiracy theories, I will over evaluate whatever confirms my beliefs - and I honestly think the same happens in cases of people who take social justice too far (thinking of 'master/slave' as inappropriate naming conventions in programming after decades of use) ; (and I hope it's unnecessary to add: I am not denying the reality of racism ; just trying to doubt the usefulness and legitimacy of taking the sensitivity into far off areas and to a degree that is unwarranted)

I guess I am just emotionally detached from this as can be, as someone who doesn't follow daily news, and is not an American. It's weird for me to accept:

'why can't I use master/slave anymore?'

'because a black man was murdered by police in a country across the Atlantic, and now they are looking to prune any mention of slavery from everywhere they can find it'

'what?'

You can't clean up the language to a point of where 'no one' is offended. Master/Slave seems like such a low level of 'potential for controversy' to me, that I am really worried about 'if that one isn't acceptable after decades of use anymore, what next'

Re: ZFS Removes References to Slavery

#128

Post by trav4225 »

banads wrote: post #48
speedgoose wrote: post #19

I think this is a good thing. I'm not a fan of removing the master name, because master has more meanings than in the slavery context and its other meanings fit well the metaphor of master in IT. But they have not removed the master term. Only the slave term, which can go away. I will not miss it, it always felt weird to use this metaphor.

Why should we ban the word "slave"; aren't there more people living in slavery now, than ever before in history? Seems like if anything we should be raising awareness about that, not hiding it literally.

This is exactly the problem with "censorship". It merely hides reality. Why is transparency not better in most situations?

Re: ZFS Removes References to Slavery

#130

Post by mplanchard »

artistsvoid wrote: post #127
ashtonkem wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to me to miss the point. I genuinely doubt that many people are offended at master/slave terminology. I personally am not offended, yet I would prefer if we did not use such terms. Why? Because words matter, and I recognize that where we decide to move terms into every day parlance has an impact on how people think. This after all is the basis of some groups trying to “reclaim” a word by trivializing it’s…

Thank you for this well written non-inflammatory response, I really appreciate it. I can see your point, but I guess we just have a different idea 'how high' sensitivity should be. Obviously you don't name something in programming 'pimp' / 'bitch', or even more extreme I suppose: 'white_guard' / 'n_____', that's obviously childish, unwarranted, and just for the sake of provocation. Like I've said though I think of 'm…

So what’s interesting to me here is that you note that some names are inappropriate to use, because of the cultural context surrounding them:

> Obviously you don't name something in programming 'pimp' / 'bitch', or even more extreme I suppose: 'white_guard' / 'n_____', that's obviously childish, unwarranted, and just for the sake of provocation.

These are all words with literal meanings that could theoretically apply to some aspect of some system. But you admit that these words are inappropriate to use, presumably because of the additional connotation and cultural context that comes along with them.

Is it so difficult to imagine that other words, words that you do not personally have the cultural context to find offensive, could feel the same way to other people who have lived through different experiences?

I am glad that you realized that it’s theoretically possible that the bias in our language of associating blackness with evil or badness might be something that affects people. I think it’s easy to say something like, “oh it’s never been about skin color, don’t be so touchy” when you’ve never had that language constantly around you while society is also actively telling you that you are worth less because you are black. But if you’re a black child being bullied in school for your skin color, that language might take on shades of meaning that seem much more sinister.

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