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Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

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Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#61

Post by dTal »

dschuetz wrote: post #35

I have found it especially worrying that IT giants increasingly encroach OSS instead of developing their own solutions. Devices remain closed while using 95% OSS code (yes, Android, the other 5% are hardware vendor firmware). It's not exclusively their fault, as Lunduke correctly points out. If the Linux Foundation is selling seats at the board of directors instead of granting them for outstanding support, well then…

I struggle to understand how a TiVo-ized device running a mixture of GPL2 and proprietary code isn't a license violation. The code is distributed to the end user as a single uninspectable blob, i.e. the firmware image. Yes, "under the hood", there are separate binaries - but this is purely an accounting fiction that holds no relevance for the user. Is any combination of GPL and non-free code allowed, so long as it emulates a Unix OS at some level?

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#62

Post by foobar_ »

morsch wrote: post #36
foobar_ wrote: post #2

Reasons start ~ 30 min mark. Linux backward compatibility really sucks. I still don't understand why fedora binaries can't run that easily on debian.

I got that huge bundle of games the other day, many of which have native Linux binaries. Binaries that probably worked fine in lots of distributions when they were released. Tried three games so far -- Cook, Serve, Delicious 2 (2017), Nuclear Throne (2013) and uh, another one (201x): all of them refused to start, lacking one shared library or another. I got CSD2 to start by copying .so files around and using LD_LIBRA…

Is it a disadvantage of the bazaar model ? In a cathedral so to speak old things are valued. In a bazaar things are sold based on trends. I see this a lot with open source software, where things are not made with the mindset of making things last a long time.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#63

Post by morsch »

foobar_ wrote: post #62
morsch wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got that huge bundle of games the other day, many of which have native Linux binaries. Binaries that probably worked fine in lots of distributions when they were released. Tried three games so far -- Cook, Serve, Delicious 2 (2017), Nuclear Throne (2013) and uh, another one (201x): all of them refused to start, lacking one shared library or another. I got CSD2 to start by copying .so files around and using LD_LIBRA…

Is it a disadvantage of the bazaar model ? In a cathedral so to speak old things are valued. In a bazaar things are sold based on trends. I see this a lot with open source software, where things are not made with the mindset of making things last a long time.

It's a fun application of the metaphor. But I can still apt install nethack, a thing that was made in 1987. Or apt install lynx, a text mode browser first released in 1992. Or apt install midnight-commander, a Norton Commander[1] clone first released in 1994. All of these still receive updates, so I guess they don't qualify as old things per se, but that's the point: as long as there is still a use for them, they keep getting updated.

If CSD2 or Nuclear Throne had been released as open source software, chances are somebody would have updated their dependencies and they'd run fine. Heck, I'm a developer, I could probably have fixed it myself. But they're proprietary, and have gotten stale, and are a pain to get working. So I guess it's more of an incompatibility between the two models than an attribute of the bazaar.

[1] an old thing that's valued in the Cathedral, if at all, then only as a curiosity

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#64

Post by jamesgeck0 »

morsch wrote: post #36
foobar_ wrote: post #2

Reasons start ~ 30 min mark. Linux backward compatibility really sucks. I still don't understand why fedora binaries can't run that easily on debian.

I got that huge bundle of games the other day, many of which have native Linux binaries. Binaries that probably worked fine in lots of distributions when they were released. Tried three games so far -- Cook, Serve, Delicious 2 (2017), Nuclear Throne (2013) and uh, another one (201x): all of them refused to start, lacking one shared library or another. I got CSD2 to start by copying .so files around and using LD_LIBRA…

A lot of Linux ports are by Windows developers who don't seem to understand that they need to statically link basically everything for semi-reliable compatibility.

Steam kinda got around this by providing a standard base of libraries Linux games could link against that would be the same on every distro, but even there some developers STILL assume that everyone has the same libraries as their Ubuntu system.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#65

Post by foobar_ »

morsch wrote: post #63
foobar_ wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a disadvantage of the bazaar model ? In a cathedral so to speak old things are valued. In a bazaar things are sold based on trends. I see this a lot with open source software, where things are not made with the mindset of making things last a long time.

It's a fun application of the metaphor. But I can still apt install nethack, a thing that was made in 1987. Or apt install lynx, a text mode browser first released in 1992. Or apt install midnight-commander, a Norton Commander[1] clone first released in 1994. All of these still receive updates, so I guess they don't qualify as old things per se, but that's the point: as long as there is still a use for them, they kee…

That's true. Well to stretch the metaphor ;) some shops in the bazaars become boutiques to differentiate from other competitors. Boutiques price their uniqueness and that's certainly true of things like vim which is certainly an old software.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#66

Post by foobar_ »

andy_ppp wrote: post #10
mattbillenstein wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They all package different versions of the shared libs...

Why are shared libs so unstable? I thought the point of library code was that it was stable and reusable... maybe all these libraries are just too big and people should be including the source inside their apps instead?

I don't think any package manager does that. That would definitely be useful. Compile and ship binaries down to libc and use binaries on any GNU / Linux System.

I don't see why as long as you output an ELF file an App can't run. Maybe AppImage does that.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#67

Post by mattbillenstein »

7532yahoogmail wrote: post #60
mattbillenstein wrote: post #6

I watched this a couple weeks ago and it just seems to have so little information density - like this guy talks and talks and talks and the actual content is like 15 minutes of this.

Agree. The guy needs to get a room with himself, get over it, and come back with something to say. Linux also isn't for desk tops by and large.

I'll say it has some wins - it's become a much better development platform than MacOS for example since it's closer to what you deploy to. And you can run Chrome, Zoom, Slack more or less natively and things work.

I've used an Ubuntu desktop at work for a few years and it's a nice environment.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#68

Post by arexxbifs »

dschuetz wrote: post #35

I have found it especially worrying that IT giants increasingly encroach OSS instead of developing their own solutions. Devices remain closed while using 95% OSS code (yes, Android, the other 5% are hardware vendor firmware). It's not exclusively their fault, as Lunduke correctly points out. If the Linux Foundation is selling seats at the board of directors instead of granting them for outstanding support, well then…

Always assume an organization is controlled by a cabal of its enemies. The managerial elite will cater to their own personal interests, not those of idealists who give away stuff for free.
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