Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Julian Assange in Limbo

lrb.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 177 posts

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#141

Post by fit2rule »

jerkstate wrote: post #134
fit2rule wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden is a patriot in my mind, and I'm no Trump supporter. Just because you associate Snowden with Trump, as per standard agitprop victim procedure, doesn't mean that you should ignore the very real criminal behaviour that Snowden revealed to the world. You should probably pay more attention to the fact of illegal behaviour, more than playing cult doll games ..

Every time I say something that can vaguely be construed as not correctly hating Trump or his supporters on this forum I get responses like this, using insulting emotional phrases like “cult doll games.” I was merely pointing out what I see as a misconception in his likely motivations. I still think the scenario GP presented is extremely unlikely and alarmist, why would you call my post agitprop and not that one?

Just so its clear, I'm not aligned with the collective view that Trump is a Putin agent - I think this is an excuse used to ignore America's true, real crimes, against humanity which occurred way before Trump came to power, and is a deflection from the real issue - which is that America has been getting away with the murder of innocent people for decades in its illegal wars. From my point of view, it'd actually be GREAT if America could get along with Russia. This would require a great deal of humility and a vacation of vast amounts of hubris on both sides, however.

"Trump is a Russian agent" is a meme designed to protect fragile American ego's from the truth, which is that America, through its unhindered asymmetric, illegal wars, is the #1 cause of violent, murderous upheaval in the world today - and therefore actually kind of deserves the orange buffoon tearing things to pieces. When war criminals are allowed to roam free, eventually the society they choose to rule becomes their target.

That said, I don't love/hate Trump as an idol, either way. He is the least of America's problems.

You're right though, we will trigger a great deal of animosity from the Trump-hating(,-loving) collective when we point this out. Agitprop is designed to push the collective mind in a desired direction - all the hating of Trump right now is doing, is preventing Americans from inspecting the real, legitimate war crimes and crimes against humanity that their nation has been committing - Trump-hatred is an Emmanuel Goldstein-like distraction mechanism. "The Party" (Joint Chiefs of Staff and the CFR) still gets away with murder, whoever is the figurehead...

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#142

Post by ASalazarMX »

voxic11 wrote: post #133
theferalrobot wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sounds like the NSA who couldn't point to a single instance of stopping any type of terrorist attack/operation despite collecting anything they could get their hands on. This can’t be true - there are plenty of sources citing foiled plots and we see similar publications from other governments (EU and beyond) citing similar justifications. A quick google yields: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/nsa-director-50-potent…

Those stories are from 2013 and later investigation found them to be false claims. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/nsa-program-stopped-no-te...

IIRC, some of those were entrapment, luring gullible individuals and goading them into terrorism.

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#143

Post by theferalrobot »

voxic11 wrote: post #133
theferalrobot wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sounds like the NSA who couldn't point to a single instance of stopping any type of terrorist attack/operation despite collecting anything they could get their hands on. This can’t be true - there are plenty of sources citing foiled plots and we see similar publications from other governments (EU and beyond) citing similar justifications. A quick google yields: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/nsa-director-50-potent…

Those stories are from 2013 and later investigation found them to be false claims. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/nsa-program-stopped-no-te...

You didn’t even read your own article.

A panel member claimed the phone metadata collection program hadn’t saved any lives/foiled any attacks - not that the NSA itself hasn’t.

Additionally they present this as being at odds with the Obama administrations documentation, not a refutation (they didn’t find them to be false claims).

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#144

Post by mindslight »

asjw wrote: post #40
AndrewBissell wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was really Greenwald and Poitras, and the Guardian just happened to be Greenwald's main outlet at the time. However WikiLeaks did help Snowden with his legal defense and flight to asylum in Russia.

> flight to asylum in Russia. Ironically Snowden tweets about freedom of information from Russia, where Putin literally kills journalists

It's not ironic, but rather straightforwardly pragmatic. A free press is an ideal to strive towards because it's something that local thugs generally attempt to shut down. Distance helps prevent coercion, and the adversary of your adversary is an ally. Analogously, the US is ideally hosting as many Russian-community-focused independent speakers as possible. The question you should be focused on is why did this whistleblower have to flee to Russia to begin with?

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#145

Post by voxic11 »

theferalrobot wrote: post #143
voxic11 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those stories are from 2013 and later investigation found them to be false claims. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/nsa-program-stopped-no-te...

You didn’t even read your own article. A panel member claimed the phone metadata collection program hadn’t saved any lives/foiled any attacks - not that the NSA itself hasn’t. Additionally they present this as being at odds with the Obama administrations documentation, not a refutation (they didn’t find them to be false claims).

Did you read your own articles? They specifically are claims that the NSA metadata collection program known as PRISM foiled terrorist attacks. They claim that evidence will not be presented publicly but will be presented to lawmakers. These exact lawmakers claim to never have received such evidence. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/13/senators-chall...

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#146

Post by mariuolo »

american_aurora wrote: post #102
Doubl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Broadly? I thinks that's a very American centric perspective. About the last system of justice I'd like to find myself at the mercy of outside those in totalitarian countries is the American one. It has earned itself an awful reputation, in Europe, at least. It's such a shame that countries like the UK appear to be behaving like client states of America.

I think this is a ridiculous perspective, especially when virtually every European countries is on the inquisitorial system. (See The Trial .) It is my opinion that the US is probably one of the best countries when it comes to the rights of a defendant ― well, before a guilty verdict. I ask that you actually take a look at some of the kinds of people who run the federal courts in the United States. See something like…

> It is my opinion that the US is probably one of the best countries when it comes to the rights of a defendant ― well, before a guilty verdict.

Perhaps in the ~5% of the cases that actually go to trial.

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#147

Post by eyelidlessness »

dependenttypes wrote: post #140
eyelidlessness wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even then though, would you consider someone who has sex with his girlfriend under the terms that he will not cheat on her a rapist if he ends up cheating on her? No, and I can't tell if you're trolling or if you don't understand the words I wrote.

> No, and I can't tell if you're trolling or if you don't understand the words I wrote. Have you considered the possibility that both of these cases are false? What makes you think that cheating in this case is not a break of the terms of the concent?

Because it's not happening during the sex.

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#148

Post by theferalrobot »

voxic11 wrote: post #145
theferalrobot wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn’t even read your own article. A panel member claimed the phone metadata collection program hadn’t saved any lives/foiled any attacks - not that the NSA itself hasn’t. Additionally they present this as being at odds with the Obama administrations documentation, not a refutation (they didn’t find them to be false claims).

Did you read your own articles? They specifically are claims that the NSA metadata collection program known as PRISM foiled terrorist attacks. They claim that evidence will not be presented publicly but will be presented to lawmakers. These exact lawmakers claim to never have received such evidence. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/13/senators-chall...

> No u

Lol the article you list was published before the documentation cited was presented (and before my articles were even published) - additionally you are moving the goalposts - the op claim is that the nsa hasn’t foiled any terror plots - not about metadata collection

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#149

Post by dependenttypes »

eyelidlessness wrote: post #147
dependenttypes wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, and I can't tell if you're trolling or if you don't understand the words I wrote. Have you considered the possibility that both of these cases are false? What makes you think that cheating in this case is not a break of the terms of the concent?

Because it's not happening during the sex.

And? It is still a break of the terms of the concent, is it not?

How about an alternative, "you can have sex with me but only if you are single", and someone who is not single lies about it. During sex said person is not going to be single and thus is breaking the terms of concent while sex is happening.

Re: Julian Assange in Limbo

#150

Post by eyelidlessness »

dependenttypes wrote: post #149
eyelidlessness wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's not happening during the sex.

And? It is still a break of the terms of the concent, is it not? How about an alternative, "you can have sex with me but only if you are single", and someone who is not single lies about it. During sex said person is not going to be single and thus is breaking the terms of concent while sex is happening.

> And? It is still a break of the terms of the concent, is it not?

Assuming I understood your original hypothetical correctly, the sex had already occurred and the violation of the terms of consent did not occur until afterward. The sex at the time was consensual (at least within those facts), the violation of trust occurred later.

> How about an alternative, "you can have sex with me but only if you are single", and someone who is not single lies about it. During sex said person is not going to be single and thus is breaking the terms of concent while sex is happening.

Yes, that is a clear violation of consent. One partner stated their acceptable boundaries to have sex, and consented only based on a lie by the other. Lying to obtain consent is fundamentally not obtaining consent. In other contracts, it would be considered fraud. Using fraud to trick someone into having sex with you is rape.

Edit: this is not just academic. People make judgments not just about whether to have sex but about what kinds of safety considerations are necessary based on this kind of information. If someone is lying to you about having other sexual partners, you are not equipped to evaluate the risk of your own sexual encounter. They are putting your life at risk and eliminating your ability to choose whether that risk is acceptable.

Post reply on HN