Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

zdnet.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 251 posts

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#111

Post by brenschluss »

tgv wrote: post #106
brenschluss wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://twitter.com/tobie/status/1270290278029631489?s=21

First: that's just stringing assumptions together. But etymology doesn't matter. If it would, "negro" wouldn't be a word to avoid. Actual use would matter, but the context doesn't seem to warrant that.

Etymology matters if enough people think it matters. Language has meaning that is social, and if enough people dislike a meaning or see a word a different way, that word will change its meaning.

So right now we are watching words change meaning.

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#112

Post by Accacin »

Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #69
lallysingh wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without the racist background, how does one know which list does which? The new names actually describe what they do. The reason it may seem ridiculous is that racism is very, very deep in American culture. The country's culture goes back hundreds of years and is still slowly working on being less so. Here's an example: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/05/11/310708342...

> Without the racist background, how does one know which list does which? By basic knowledge of the English language. Terms like "black market", "black death", "black tuesday", etc. etc. By the expressions like "looking at things in black and white". It is a part of language, it has nothing to do with race. These colors are used in the same way in other languages of other countries that don't even have racial slavery…

I think where I see a difference is that there's no 'white market', 'white death' and 'white Tuesday'. Whereas with black/white list there's a clear separation that even may not be meant as racist, I can definitely see it coming across that way.

Black and white thinking is often talking in terms of extremes, which neither being inherently 'better' than the other.

It's not for me to say whether the whole of American culture is racist, but I do think the language we use has a lot of power to help people feel less marginalised and having to use some different words is a small price to pay for me.

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#113

Post by drdeca »

libria wrote: post #104
drdeca wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The explanation that Rosstex posted does not refer to “black” people, or to “white” people?

By "racist background" they mean "racist association". Perhaps it didn't start that way but due to history it can easily be twisted to be seen as offensive. I can't tattoo a swastika on my arm, despite its origins.

“Easily twisted to be seen as offensive” is not the same thing as “offensive”.

[edit: also, that doesn’t really explain citing Rosstex?]

Also, my understanding is that that there are places in the world where the primary associations for a swastika are the earlier ones, not the nazi ones.

I don’t see a reason to tell the people living in those places to stop using that symbol amongst themselves (though asking that they not use it in places where it is likely to be genuinely misinterpreted may be reasonable)

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#114

Post by Kye »

Rochus wrote: post #85

"Don’t you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it." George Orwell, 1984

If you think modifying language with the aim of including more kinds of thinking is the same as the aim of Newspeak, you need to re-read 1984. You missed something.

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#115

Post by xixixao »

xixixao wrote: post #105

On the blacklist etc. issue, when you think about it it's actually the other way around. "black" was historically "bad" (not related to race), but it was super convenient that slaves had a darker skin that you could call "black", and things got blurred. No "white" people are actually white and no "black" people are actually black. "white" people are pinkish to light brownish and "black" people are light to dark brown…

And on the original issue it's good to point out that there were millions of slaves throughout human history who were not black... That doesn't make the concept any better, but it hasn't been historically a racial issue (people were enslaved because of a difference in religion, place they lived in regardless of ethnicity or solely social status).

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#116

Post by haspoken »

rosstex wrote: post #29
mirthflat83 wrote: post #3

> but also terms like "blacklist" and "whitelist" for "allow list" and "deny/exclude list." Seriously?

Some etymology: blacklist (n.) also black-list, "list of persons who have incurred suspicion, earned punishment, or are for any reason deemed objectionable by the makers and users of the list," 1610s, from black (adj.), here indicative of disgrace, censure, punishment (a sense attested from 1590s, in black book) + list (n.1). Specifically of employers' list of workers considered troublesome (usually for union activit…

Are these racially derived, or just the idea of opposing forces or other connotations of white and black?

Games such as Go, Chaturanga, Chess, Reversi commonly use black vs white pieces and are depicted as such in early illustrations.

I think that there are other reasons for black vs white than race.

I did find the article "The light and dark of language" that touches on this. ( https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2009/12/the-light-and-dar... )

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#117

Post by dub »

there_the_and wrote: post #28
bzb3 wrote: post #7

When they ask you what virtue signalling is, show them this.

It's not. This is more like a swear word. No one would expect that calling it the "fuck" branch would be OK. Just because more people are OK with "master" doesn't change the fact that it bothers other people who are just trying to code. This isn't hard to understand.

How do you account for all of the respected academic institutions that grant masters degrees in fields of study like African American Studies or Social Justice?

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#118

Post by Madzen__ »

gotoeleven wrote: post #66
bzb3 wrote: post #7

When they ask you what virtue signalling is, show them this.

Ahh don't be so cynical. I think this push to euphemize common words is going to finally end racism.

How is master/slave racist? Slaves are not a race.

Re: GitHub to replace “master” with alternative term to avoid slavery references

#120

Post by tchaffee »

cameronbrown wrote: post #15
mavhc wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes sense, better wording and less racist.

The terms have nothing to do with race.

Take away the historical context of the words and how do you know which list is the denylist and which list is the allowlist?

"blacklist" first started becoming popular during widespread slavery of Africans for European colonies. If you want to dehumanize and enslave an entire continent, it sure does help to have the word "black" mean "evil".

If you are a black American, the word black does mean a lot to you for sure. What's the impact of seeing that word mean "bad" or "evil" or "not allowed" on a regular basis at the workplace? Does that experience have anything to do with race? Whether or not it was about race in the past, it is about race now. "denylist" is both more accurate and fixes a problem that we have right now.

Post reply on HN