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Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

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Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#11
post #5

Whats the state of Linux on the desktop in 2020? What distribution do you recommend for a normal person to use?

I use Debian myself, but you may want to stick with Ubuntu if you're unsure about it (Ubuntu has more up-to-date versions of things and if you run into trouble, you'll have more support). Just one thing though, if you're wondering which version, go with an "LTS" (Long Term Support) version. While you should be upgrading your distro when you can, if you choose not to the LTS versions keep their packages available for much longer, so you won't be left high and dry. The latest version (Ubuntu 20.04 LTS) is an LTS version, so you should be good to go :)

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#12
post #5

Whats the state of Linux on the desktop in 2020? What distribution do you recommend for a normal person to use?

> Whats the state of Linux on the desktop in 2020?

Pretty decent for anyone who can tolerate default Gnome and has the right hardware. So, no, still not ready to be a drop-in Windows replacement for casual users.

> What distribution do you recommend for a normal person to use?

What's normal? Normal HN reader? Probably Debian-nonfree, which has all the good parts of Ubuntu and almost none of the bad. Soccer mom pinterest poster though? Windows or Mac.

IMHO, Linux on the desktop is still for those with an above-average interest in computers. Hardware support is getting pretty damn good and software support is great, provided you know about the FOSS options. However, you're also pretty likely to run into some kind of snag that you will either have to just tolerate, or fix yourself by gradually learning how to poke about in the terminal.

Openness leads to diversity which inevitably makes standardization harder. Thing is, I prefer that to the ever-increasing user disempowerment in Windows and MacOS.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#14
Super happy finally to see someone call out backward compatibility (around 31:20)

Linux is terrible on this axis, way worse than Windows.

EDIT: and statically linking your app doesn't cut it.

First, it's barely possible to do that with "modern" glibc.

Second, glibc itself breaks old apps.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#15
post #2

Reasons start ~ 30 min mark. Linux backward compatibility really sucks. I still don't understand why fedora binaries can't run that easily on debian.

They all package different versions of the shared libs...

glibc has really good backward compatibility. But, yeah, few other libraries even bother, let alone make a serious attempt at this. One of the major exceptions is libvirt, which promised 100% backward compatibility from day 1. Here's a great overview (2011) of how they accomplish that: https://www.berrange.com/posts/2011/01/13/versioning-in-the-...

Note that it wasn't until GCC 10 (2020) that you could implement ELF symbol versioning without using an ugly inline asm hack in your function definition. From the GCC 10 release notes at https://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-10/changes.html:

> The symver attribute can be used to bind symbols to specific version nodes on ELF platforms. This is preferred to using inline assembly with GNU as symver directive because the latter is not compatible with link-time optimizations.

In combination with confusion around the differences between file suffix versioning, soname versioning, and symbol versioning, it's not surprising few developers even attempt to get this right. OTOH, most ABI breakages are because of dumb mistakes early on or gratuitous changes to the API. If you commit to API stability from the beginning, then ABI stability can and will come more naturally, at least for C code. Versioning of any sort becomes less complicated and even less important.[1] C++ is different because of how heavily header-defined templates are used these days.

[1] In other words, if you think API and ABI stability is principally a question of versioning, such as semantic versioning, you're doing it wrong. Commit to 100% backward compatibility at the API level and the answers to most of your design dilemmas become obvious. With the reduced cognitive burden, minding ABI compatibility becomes easier.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#16

Super happy finally to see someone call out backward compatibility (around 31:20) Linux is terrible on this axis, way worse than Windows. EDIT: and statically linking your app doesn't cut it. First, it's barely possible to do that with "modern" glibc. Second, glibc itself breaks old apps.

That would, make sense? Microsoft has valued backwards compatibility way more than most would consider reasonable.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#17

I watched this a couple weeks ago and it just seems to have so little information density - like this guy talks and talks and talks and the actual content is like 15 minutes of this.

Yep, that!

Maybe you have some fun with BSD-Lore (Kirk McKusick):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEEr6dT-4uQ

Or Solaris/illumos (Bryan M. Cantrill):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#18
post #4
post #2

Reasons start ~ 30 min mark. Linux backward compatibility really sucks. I still don't understand why fedora binaries can't run that easily on debian.

Because they are two separate operating systems.

What they are not Gnu/Linux?

Man i did not knew that.....

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#19
post #5

Whats the state of Linux on the desktop in 2020? What distribution do you recommend for a normal person to use?

Ubuntu, because it's the most common choice, so has the most coverage/support by other people and tools.

If I'm routinely going off-road, I want to stick to relatively known trails. I'll save scaling mountains for my holiday.

Re: Linux Sucks 2020 [video]

#20
post #5

Whats the state of Linux on the desktop in 2020? What distribution do you recommend for a normal person to use?

I use Debian myself, but you may want to stick with Ubuntu if you're unsure about it (Ubuntu has more up-to-date versions of things and if you run into trouble, you'll have more support). Just one thing though, if you're wondering which version, go with an "LTS" (Long Term Support) version. While you should be upgrading your distro when you can, if you choose not to the LTS versions keep their packages available for…

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