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On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

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Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#141

Post by ljm »

luckylion wrote: post #135
ljm wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gonna give you the benefit of a response coz I don't think it's helpful to express disagreement through a downvote without attempting to explain why. > I don't get offended by other people's words and I don't expect other people to be offended by my words either. You shouldn't expect other people to feel the same way as you either. You can't decide how offended someone should be, as that's their own reaction to y…

> You shouldn't expect other people to feel the same way as you either. You can't decide how offended someone should be, as that's their own reaction to you. It might seem extreme or overboard to you, but how much do you know about them to judge that? That's a difficult argument. It's totally fine to physically defend yourself if you're being attacked, and what constitutes an attack is obviously perfectly subjective,…

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say; I can see where you're coming from but I'm not sure how you draw your conclusion.

> "all feelings are valid, therefore you must act a certain way"

Thank you for proving my main post under this topic correct, where I state that people will choose what they hear and respond to that, and not respond to what was actually said. Total failure of communication.

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#142

Post by yellowapple »

cactus2093 wrote: post #110
IceDane wrote: post #18

Note that this is from 2018. I personally totally agree with the author. Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended. If we keep going down this path of endless meaningless virtue signalling, where will we stop? Is the term "black hole" racist too? What about blackout? Etc, etc. No one really cares about these terms and it they do thei…

When you assert “nobody cares”, you’re just being a jerk. Lots of people do, you just don’t care. And your reduction ad absurdum argument is not convincing at all here. Yes it is possible to take this too far. Some people probably do take it too far. The concepts of light and dark are physical realities as in a black hole being the absence of reflected or emitted light. And they have long been used as metaphors for o…

> There is really no reasonable argument that master and slave is a good terminology to use for databases.

That doesn't mean that it's reasonable to insist that all databases which already use this terminology should potentially break compatibility with prior versions of themselves simply because a handful of other people see the words "master" and "slave" and entirely ignore actual context in order to look "woke" (coming across as superficial and insincere in the process).

It is what it is. Maybe there are more descriptive terms, but "master" and "slave" are descriptive enough.

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#143

Post by yellowapple »

apta wrote: post #137
IceDane wrote: post #18

Note that this is from 2018. I personally totally agree with the author. Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended. If we keep going down this path of endless meaningless virtue signalling, where will we stop? Is the term "black hole" racist too? What about blackout? Etc, etc. No one really cares about these terms and it they do thei…

> Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended. It's even more absurd in these situations, since the ones "offended" are almost always whites who have nothing better to do than to stir up controversy.

The cynic in me thinks that these might be people trying to discredit actual human rights movements by masquerading as members thereof and spamming every possible venue with trivial nonsense.

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#144

Post by yellowapple »

ptsneves wrote: post #124
luckylion wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its tone deaf to ignore this as why it might be offensive to some of your coworkers. I'm speculating: you believe it's a problem for African Americans, but e.g. not for Polish Americans, right? I'm trying to understand your thought process here, because the word slave literally (literally literally, I'm not making this up) stems from Slavic people that were captured by Romans.

On the topic of romans and meanings changing, the word decimation used to mean the killing of one in ten in the Roman legions as a way to get military discipline. Nowadays there is no connection to Roman legions nor killing and actually is used to refer as a synonimous to anyhalation in general. It annoys me this slave thing because racism or xenophobia are often very complex and real problems of disaffection and soc…

> yet we are policing words as if it has any corrective impact.

Exactly. There are far bigger fish to fry than whether or not some piece of software uses terms that can be misconstrued to be somehow racist (riddle me this: is BDSM inherently racist because that subculture uses "master" and "slave" terminology?).

We (at least here in the US) are in dire need of widespread reforms throughout our "justice" system, particularly when it comes to police and prisons. We are also facing an ongoing issue of white supremacists infesting our government at all levels. Harassing open-source projects over what words they use is a petty and pointless distraction from these very real issues that have very real and very strong impacts on American minorities.

I can't speak to other countries and their race relations, but my impression from hearing about their attitudes toward immigrants/refugees is that they ain't much better.

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#145

Post by yellowapple »

x3haloed wrote: post #105
eterps wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The project maintainer absolutely has the right to choose not to remove offensive language. What offensive language has been communicated in this case? > What is he really fighting for? Wasn't that clearly explained in the post? > The language is outdated and stems from a practice Outdated? Has the 'practice' you're referring to dissappeared? > from a practice that is universally shunned. What to think of people pr…

Nice attempt at deconstrivism. I will address a few of your points together: > What offensive language has been communicated in this case? > Outdated? Has the 'practice' you're referring to dissappeared? > What to think of people practicing BDSM? Or bioligists describing insect behaviour? Is their language offensive? I’m referring, obviously, to the language of “slave and master.” The practice of slavery, unfortunate…

> As for BDSM and language about insect behavior, that’s completely within a different realm, because those topics are not related to the long history of systemic suppression and subjection of an entire class of people

Neither is computer science, yet here we are.

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#146

Post by yellowapple »

tln wrote: post #70
lllr_finger wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We just renamed our use of whitelist and blacklist for two reasons, outside of any racial contexts. The easy one is that we don't want to argue about it, much likes tabs vs spaces - the value for us is in having a standard, not necessarily what the standard is. The other one is that I spend a ton of time convincing developers to be intentional and deliberate in their naming of variables and functions, and these terms…

Blacklist has been in English for hundreds of years with the current meaning... I guess it would not be obvious to ESL developers but do you avoid other difficult vocabulary? Just curious Allowlist and denylist are great alternatives except they don't read well as verbs

The verbs would be "allow" and "deny".

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#147

Post by x3haloed »

eterps wrote: post #115
x3haloed wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice attempt at deconstrivism. I will address a few of your points together: > What offensive language has been communicated in this case? > Outdated? Has the 'practice' you're referring to dissappeared? > What to think of people practicing BDSM? Or bioligists describing insect behaviour? Is their language offensive? I’m referring, obviously, to the language of “slave and master.” The practice of slavery, unfortunate…

Thanks for your reply, I'll have to give it more thought. I agree with most of it though. > You and other proponents of leaving offensive language intact I was/am actually in favor of removing said language because I want language to be welcoming towards people and people are clearly taking offense. > And who has determined that is not an actual problem? Or that this is not effective or helpful? You? No, I am in no w…

After writing my post, I thought again about directing my arguments at you specifically. It was maybe too personal and assumptive. I think I got too defensive.

Anyway, I appreciate that you read what I wrote and chose to keep in the conversation.

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#148

Post by brianwawok »

retox wrote: post #5
brianwawok wrote: post #3

I suspect this is one of those topics that at some point, everyone will have just switched terms because it's not worth the hassle to fight these fights over and over again. Kind of a "I'm not wrong, but is it a good use of 20 hours a year to argue about this?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler%27s_veto

TIL thanks!

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#149

Post by apta »

yellowapple wrote: post #143
apta wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended. It's even more absurd in these situations, since the ones "offended" are almost always whites who have nothing better to do than to stir up controversy.

The cynic in me thinks that these might be people trying to discredit actual human rights movements by masquerading as members thereof and spamming every possible venue with trivial nonsense.

You're giving them too much credit :) I think they're unaware of the dumbing down they're doing.

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#150

Post by atomicity »

mnm1 wrote: post #117
rmetzler wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, that's exactly how I feel. I've got a Master of Science degree, should I feel bad about that? On the other hand, I second that "slave" is not a good terminology and trivializes real slavery, while a lot of words like "replica" or "worker" are more descriptive in a software context.

Should Slavic people now be required to change the name of their ethnicity too? I mean they are literally called slaves. Yup, let's force them to do that because we're being consistent now. No more Slavs. Let's call them replicas. Makes about as much sense as changing "master slave."

This is downvoted but I found it interesting that the English word "slave" is derived from Slav.

From the Wiki article [0]: "In medieval wars many Slavs were captured and enslaved, which led to the word slav becoming synonym to "enslaved person

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs_(ethnonym)

For the same reasons people argue against abusing terminology like "retard" or "gay", you could argue that using the word "slave" affects people's perception of Eastern Europeans.

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