New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat • Hacker News Board

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#481

Post by tripzilch » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 2:28 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #175

jcims wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For years now I've seen comments like this from Europeans every time unions come up in conversation online. You all need need to come work for a large union in the US. They are just not the same thing. I've had direct or indirect experience with Teamsters, CWA, NEA, IBEW and UBC. You can dress it up however you like but there are definitely 'union jobs' with all of the connotation that brings. Yes there are benefits…

This is the same argument I see americans make a lot. "Unions are bad!", no, the concept is fine, you have some bad ones. "Police are bad!", no, the concept is fine, yours are just untrained and overburdened. "Public transport is bad, I need a car!", no, the concept is fine, you just have bad public transport and that forms your opinion.

Don't forget "I don't trust the government [to regulate X]".

It would really help if people would just use some qualifiers "US Unions", "US Police", "US Public transport", "US government".

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#482

Post by tripzilch » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 2:41 PM UTC

elliekelly wrote: post #191

KorfmannArno wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please give an example of good public transport. (I'm living in Germany)

I was really impressed by Amsterdam’s transportation system as a whole - roads, bike lanes, light rail. As an American it felt like the city was designed to encourage walking or biking followed by public transport with cars as a last resort.

In the very heart of the city of Groningen (also in NL), regular cars aren't even allowed. Just buses, taxis, police, ambulance .. and delivery trucks I guess. Especially at night it's wonderful, imagine all the space that isn't filled with metal boxes.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#483

Post by mushbino » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 4:38 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #393

rb808 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hollywood unions are a prime reason lots of movies are made in Vancouver/Georgia/Other Countries now. Hollywood will end up like Detroit.

Favorable tax conditions are more likely the reason for that.

This is correct. I know a few producers who shoot in Georgia and Louisiana and the tax credits are exactly why.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#484

Post by pphysch » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

waheoo wrote: post #469

pphysch wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "sales pitch" that is relevant here is the one put forth by the DoD and their enormously powerful SIGs for the last 75 years, namely "unions = communism" and "communism = bad". As much as I would like to believe that there is a massive pro-working-class institution in the US that can afford to spend billions per annum on under-the-table PR/propaganda campaigns to shill collective action, it just isn't the case. T…

I dont understand whats the pentagons propaganda machine got to do with me? Not american. Ps, i was not saying communism == unions. Thats fucking retarded on so many levels.

American military hegemony is a worldwide phenomenon. Unless you are in what is deemed by the MIC as "communist/terrorist/drug-dealer" country, there is going to be a sizeable media+political influence from Western/US interests in your country.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#485

Post by mushbino » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 5:38 PM UTC

jeltz wrote: post #184

KorfmannArno wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please give an example of good public transport. (I'm living in Germany)

Stockholm's subway. I have also had good experiences in cities like Madrid, Milan and Lisbon.

Hell, the underground in Kyiv is better than almost anything in the US, imo.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#486

Post by mushbino » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 5:55 PM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #159

shaftoe wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do. It's called finding another job.

Birling: […] So I refused. Said I couldn't consider it. We were paying the usual rates and if they didn't like those rates, they could go and work somewhere else. It's a free country, I told them. Eric: It isn't if you can't go and work somewhere else. — J. B. Priestley Not everyone is in a position to find another job. And what do you do if the best place you can work is still rubbish? What if you're an ISP tech?

An ISP tech? Just learn to code and then bounce from job to job to job until you find one with a good manager.

Okay, sarcasm aside; I've worked for many different tech companies and good managers are exceptionally rare and there is no pressure from the top to change that, and pressure from the bottom doesn't work. There is, however, a lot of pressure to not fire or demote managers as it looks bad for the management above them.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#487

Post by dependenttypes » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 6:44 PM UTC

trowawee wrote: post #473

dependenttypes wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chances are that you benefit from open source code that I wrote. Where is my money?

Well, you choosing to donate your time and effort to an open source project is really not analogous to a union's work improving workplaces, but! As it so happens I do believe that having huge swathes of the tech industry built on unpaid labor is also a pretty bad thing, that the political stance taken by large parts of the FOSS community that "free means no restrictions, EVER!" is foolish, and that companies should h…

Well, you choosing to donate your time and effort to a union project is really not analogous to a human's work improving lives by making open source software.

What you said is cool and all but I am still waiting for my money for all of the open source software that you are using.

Sane countries make you pay only if you want to participate in the union (such as when you vote).

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#488

Post by knorker » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

CryptoPunk wrote: post #464

knorker wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all things being equal The whole point of unions is to affect change, so what does that sentence even mean? All else being equal means the union did nothing to change anything, and therefore is 100% overhead.

The changes that unions make will not neutralize the negative impact they have on an industry's efficiency/competitivess. The outlier is if unions succeed in changing immigration policy to restrict the inflow of foreign labor. That can have unexpected effects that boost the country's economic growth rate or at least help its wage growth rate. Depending on the situation, immigration restrictions can also harm the coun…

Yes, but all else is not equal, so...

Unions are there as a counterpart to business screwing employees.

I understand the US has a different experience with unions than the rest of the world, but they can be really good.

Employers have certainly tried to screw me (e.g. "you need to work overtime with no pay"), and it's really useful to have someone have your back saying "uh, nope that's not legal", instead of being alone as a newgrad.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#489

Post by xtat » Sun, Jun 14, 2020, 6:37 AM UTC

Facebook is the harbinger of the techno-dystopia of the next decade

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#490

Post by LatteLazy » Sun, Jun 14, 2020, 11:35 AM UTC

rightbyte wrote: post #458

LatteLazy wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the person you replied to and I get where you're coming frorm but... * Job jumping is what forces employers to actually recognize performance. That's both for the person leaving and for everyone else left behind. * Not so much for the company a person leaves or joins, but for the economy as a whole, job jumping IS performance. Your job isn't just being good at whatever you do right now, it's finding and movin…

I agree with that it is not bad the economy that people change jobs, but I believe that the employers overvalue others employees and undervalues their own, a bit. Not counting the most dull sweat shops, programmers experienced in the company's code and processes just are like X months/years of salary more valuable on average than everyone else in their hiring pool on average. I worked on my prior workplace for three…

I don't think you're wrong, but I have 2 tangential points that might challenge you...

The first point is Why do you care? 6m of not producing anything but still getting paid is a problem for the company not you. If there were a way of getting 6m production from you for no salary, they'd do it. They're undervaluing usefulness, but you're over valuing it!

The second point is that too few people move. Why does that matter? Because it explains the companies actions. Imagine If you have 10 employees who could get jobs elsewhere, and you have to pay them all 5k to prevent that happening. But you know 9 of them are not even going to look. So if you do nothing, you'll save 50k but lose 1 employee. Rehiring will mean 6m of lost usefulness of 1 person. So unless the average salary is 100k, you're better off losing 6m worth of work and saving 50k...

If more people moved more often, companies would do more to encourage people to stay. The fact that such a big chunk of the workforce are basically lifers is why companies don't have to value long service...