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On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

antirez.com

101–110 of 162 posts

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#101
post #18

Note that this is from 2018. I personally totally agree with the author. Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended. If we keep going down this path of endless meaningless virtue signalling, where will we stop? Is the term "black hole" racist too? What about blackout? Etc, etc. No one really cares about these terms and it they do thei…

> Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended

This argument seems like it could be used to absolve anyone of guilt for using racist terms. "I'm not racist, that person chose to be offended by my statement".

> No one really cares about these terms

Seemingly people do care about these terms because we're having this discussion. In our white-dominated industry I would bet many don't, but why not make an effort to make the terminology we use more inclusive.

> their opinion shouldn't outweigh the time, effort required to fix it, or the opinions of everyone else

I don't think people are expecting open source maintainers to drop everything to fix these terms. In some cases it will be unfeasible and they could just say that.

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#102
post #18

Note that this is from 2018. I personally totally agree with the author. Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended. If we keep going down this path of endless meaningless virtue signalling, where will we stop? Is the term "black hole" racist too? What about blackout? Etc, etc. No one really cares about these terms and it they do thei…

> Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended This argument seems like it could be used to absolve anyone of guilt for using racist terms. "I'm not racist, that person chose to be offended by my statement". > No one really cares about these terms Seemingly people do care about these terms because we're having this discussion. In our wh…

> This argument seems like it could be used to absolve anyone of guilt for using racist terms. "I'm not racist, that person chose to be offended by my statement".

Technically, yes. But what matters (should matter) in the end is the intent. (Did I say that to offend or did I say it because I didn’t know better?) What should matter is the intended meaning of words, not the formal appearance of words. After all that’s what language is about. Now, I realize this gets complicated once you consider that a language use that arose from injustice/bias continues to perpetuate that bias. But that is not the case here.

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#104
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is the term "black hole" racist too? That has been objected to [1][2][3]. A white county commissioner described a slow office as a black hole for paperwork, a black county commissioner said that was racist and it should be called a white hole, and a black judge asked the first commissioner to apologize for his racist remark. Also, "angel food cake" and "devil's food cake" were also declared racist, apparently, in t…

Perhaps not racist but the origin is quite horrifying According to Hong-Yee Chiu, an astrophysicist at NASA, the Black Hole of Calcutta was the inspiration for the term black hole referring to regions of space-time resulting from the gravitational collapse of very heavy stars. He recalled hearing physicist Robert Dicke in the early 1960s compare such gravitationally collapsed objects to the prison https://en.wikipedi…

Despite the origin, I would guess most people associate the name to the fact that black holes suck up all light (with the color black being the absence of light), as well as how pictures of black holes show the color as black.

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#105
post #85

The project maintainer absolutely has the right to choose not to remove offensive language. Although, I find his position to be unnecessarily defensive. What is he really fighting for? The language is outdated and stems from a practice that is universally shunned. There is work involved in changing the language yet there is no harm in it. People absolutely have the right to be offended. Feeling offended is just that…

> The project maintainer absolutely has the right to choose not to remove offensive language. What offensive language has been communicated in this case? > What is he really fighting for? Wasn't that clearly explained in the post? > The language is outdated and stems from a practice Outdated? Has the 'practice' you're referring to dissappeared? > from a practice that is universally shunned. What to think of people pr…

Nice attempt at deconstrivism.

I will address a few of your points together:

> What offensive language has been communicated in this case? > Outdated? Has the 'practice' you're referring to dissappeared? > What to think of people practicing BDSM? Or bioligists describing insect behaviour? Is their language offensive?

I’m referring, obviously, to the language of “slave and master.” The practice of slavery, unfortunately, has not disappeared, but is universally banned and recognized as morally wrong. The use of language based on slavery in computer science was dreampt up long ago, and it’s time to rethink it - just as “mongoloid” used to be the official scientific word to refer to people with mental disabilities. I highly doubt you or the author would defend so vigorously the right to keep using that term in software APIs and documentation. It was a silly idea to use the word in the first place, and there’s simply no good reason to use it now. As for BDSM and language about insect behavior, that’s completely within a different realm, because those topics are not related to the long history of systemic suppression and subjection of an entire class of people

You and other proponents of leaving offensive language intact are blinded by binary thinking - the slippery slope argument. That if one thing is done to address offended people, then something must be done for everyone who is offended, and where does it end? Therefore the slippery slope. That misguided type of thinking supposes that all moral decisions can be made on a set of universally applied rules that will decide what is right and what must be done about it. But the world is gray - not black and white, and no two situations are the same. Judgement is necessary in every situation.

>> What is he really fighting for? > Wasn't that clearly explained in the post? Not really. What was clear from the post was that he didn’t want to do it, and he felt he wasn’t wrong for not doing it. That doesn’t explain why he went through the effort of presumably spending hours to write a lengthy blog post about it. The question then, is why is he fighting so hard against making some code and documentation changes?

And on a related note:

>> Changing the language would be more welcoming towards people > I agree with that. But I'm dissapointed that people are content with it. IMO it distracts from more pressing issues that need to be addressed. I think that actively fighting against changing the language by spending inordinate amounts of time writing blogs about his refusal to change the language is a huge distraction. Just do it or don’t do it.

>> There is work involved in changing the language yet there is no harm in it. > It is harmful when it deflects from the actual problems we have in our society these days. Just because something is immediately actionable doesn't mean it is effective or even helpful. And who has determined that is not an actual problem? Or that this is not effective or helpful? You? The white males who run the world?

>> People absolutely have the right to be offended. Of course people may feel offended, they just shouldn't automatically get additional rights by being offended. To which additional rights are you referring?

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#106
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like that's the very point the author is trying to make. We can't give in to the dictatorship of the Small Minority specially when the most intolerant people seem to scream the loudest.

It's a bit unclear if you are just trying to express the authors views or your own, but if those are your own views I felt that it warranted a reply. The concept of "dictatorship of small minority" implies that the only governing principle should be the vote of the majority. But that is a deeply flawed system, if there wasn't any other rule than "majority wins" then all oppression of minorities becomes valid and all…

> The concept of "dictatorship of small minority" implies that the only governing principle should be the vote of the majority.

No, it does not. "I don't want to live under dictator A" does not imply "I want to enslave A" or "I want to live under dictator B", it only implies that I do not want to live under dictator A.

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#107
post #18

Note that this is from 2018. I personally totally agree with the author. Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended. If we keep going down this path of endless meaningless virtue signalling, where will we stop? Is the term "black hole" racist too? What about blackout? Etc, etc. No one really cares about these terms and it they do thei…

Agreed. There is widespread discrimination in the media against politically incorrect people. Political incorrectness is part of my personal identity. I didn't choose to be born careless, it's a natural tendency that I have. I'm sorry I wasn't born as an easily offended person. I don't get offended by other people's words and I don't expect other people to be offended by my words either. Does that make me a bad perso…

I can see that my comment was downvoted a lot. I suspect that this is because only offended people vote at all.

This down-voting is real discrimination. It offends and hurts me for real in a profound way. How would you down-voters feel if I downvoted you for expressing an idea which captures the essence of who you are?

I struggle with this issue for real, every day of my life. People don't take introverted, unopinionated people seriously these days. I had to change to get my voice heard.

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#108
post #37
post #18

Note that this is from 2018. I personally totally agree with the author. Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended. If we keep going down this path of endless meaningless virtue signalling, where will we stop? Is the term "black hole" racist too? What about blackout? Etc, etc. No one really cares about these terms and it they do thei…

> Is the term "black hole" racist too? That has been objected to [1][2][3]. A white county commissioner described a slow office as a black hole for paperwork, a black county commissioner said that was racist and it should be called a white hole, and a black judge asked the first commissioner to apologize for his racist remark. Also, "angel food cake" and "devil's food cake" were also declared racist, apparently, in t…

Again, a result of insertion of racially charged connotations into a context in which there are fundamentally none. A black hole is a stellar remnant of such density everything around it gets sucked in, but can't get out. The quote "white hole" is representative of a theoretical region of space where the outpour of mass and energy is so high as to render it inaccessible.

Any value judgement of racial significance being attached to those terms is fundamentally a byproduct of the racially charged thinking of the participants.

I want to make this clear; if one thinks something may be racist, one would be well served double checking one's own thinking, and the context behind it first for whether it is the perceiver themselves projecting onto a situation in which none is present. Failure to do so renders one completely blind to the actually extant major sources of systemic racial discrimination that are in dire need of wiping out. Namely things like Euclidean zoning, statistical redlining, demographic segmentation, the lack of humanity in our methods of effectively dealing with discrimination of criminal offenders simply in need of rehabilitation, and those we need to isolate from society at large.

But no, perpetuation of bread and circuses, the politician's fallacy, scratching the surface, and doing nothing to actually change the underlying structure of the mechanisms and operative factors at work in the world is so much easier.

It isn't enough to rage at perceived injustice. You have to grapple with it, run it down, understand it, reckon with it, and figure out how to keep life going without it. This also includes being honest about all the contributing factors and accepting that you might be a factor in it.

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#109

It doesn't matter if YOU don't think it's offensive. It's about how others think and feel about it. Are people really so self-centered that they can't understand that? And the slippery slope argument doesn't hold water because it's very obvious when a good number of people have a problem with it vs one or two people who are trying to be provocative. People are reasonable and if they are telling you something bothers…

> It doesn't matter if YOU don't think it's offensive. It's about how others think and feel about it. The name ianwalter offends me, please change it. > And the slippery slope argument doesn't hold water because it's very obvious when a good number of people have a problem with it vs one or two people who are trying to be provocative. How many people do I need for you to change your name because it offends us? Or is…

This is a great example of my point about "one or two people who are trying to be provocative". It's pretty obvious to anyone reading it that you are just explicitly trying to manufacture an issue.

Re: On Redis master-slave terminology (2018)

#110
post #18

Note that this is from 2018. I personally totally agree with the author. Anyone who chooses to be offended by words used in a totally different context is doing exactly that - choosing to be offended. If we keep going down this path of endless meaningless virtue signalling, where will we stop? Is the term "black hole" racist too? What about blackout? Etc, etc. No one really cares about these terms and it they do thei…

When you assert “nobody cares”, you’re just being a jerk. Lots of people do, you just don’t care.

And your reduction ad absurdum argument is not convincing at all here. Yes it is possible to take this too far. Some people probably do take it too far. The concepts of light and dark are physical realities as in a black hole being the absence of reflected or emitted light. And they have long been used as metaphors for opposing forces, as in yin and yang or many cultures’ representations of good and evil. I think there is very reasonable argument that analogies to these things can be separated from the concept of white and black as races of people in American.

There is really no reasonable argument that master and slave is a good terminology to use for databases. It’s an overt and completely unnecessary reference to slavery, and not even a particularly apt or useful analogy. There are better words like primary and replica or follower that are easy to use.

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