Earlier quoted context omitted.
The choice for companies is to either follow a country’s laws, or not operate in that country. It’s not moral relativism, it’s just business.
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Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request
281–290 of 397 posts
Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request
#282Earlier quoted context omitted.
Free speech is a concept even the west is struggling with -- Twitter hiding Donald Trump's tweets for example, or New Zealand banning the terrorists manifesto. If even the bastion of free speech is starting to have second doubts about it, how can you claim the moral high ground when a third country wants to restrict free speech?
As is brought up every time this is mentioned, freedom of speech is the freedom from suppression of speech, not the guarantee of universal availability of a specific platform for speech. The latter never has been and never should be enshrined in law.
Here I would disagree, freedom of speech is an ideal, and the constitutional amendment was based on that ideal. Universal platforms for speech are somewhat of a new concept, but there is still some precedent against de-platforming, for example with John Adams and his defense of the British soldiers in the Boston massacare[1], a precedent that still holds (held) with attorneys defending very unsavory characters not because they ideologically support them but because the basis of a healthy society depends upon it.
John F. Kennedy famously said "We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." [2]
The time has come when America is afraid of it's own citizenry.
[1] https://www.history.com/news/boston-massacre-trial-john-adam...
[2] https://americanrhetoric.com/speeches/jfkvoiceofamerica.htm
Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request
#283Earlier quoted context omitted.
The Internet does not invalidate national sovereignty. I believe this has been a very bad principle in the past, this idea that you can do business in some country, and if it's via the Internet you somehow shouldn't care about their laws. If you accept one connection from a user in some country, you are doing business in that country. And much more uncontroversially, if you are accepting payments from someone in anot…
> If you accept one connection from a user in some country, you are doing business in that country. I disagree with this. I have an open port at 80 and 443 and whoever wants to connect to it can do so. If my server is physically in the US, it only needs to obey US laws. If someone is violating their country's (weird) laws by visiting the server, that's that person's problem. It's not my job as a developer, website ho…
> That doesn't change if "flies with an international flight" changes to "travels virtually via an international TCP connection".
That is not at all clear. In general, the place where I physically stand is the place whoze laws I expect to be affected by, in any transaction. Of course, this is also true of you sitting near your server, so there is a conflict.
Also, I suspect international commerce is more complex than that, and that if there were a conflict between German laws and US laws on the consumer's rights in your example, the German laws might have some power against you (well, probably not with the US specifically).
Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request
#284Earlier quoted context omitted.
LOL for real. I will cry no tears for FB when they get what’s coming to them. Will be the MySpace of my kids time.(if it’s not already is)
As bad as Facebook is, it's being supplanted by the CCP-controlled TikTok. That's almost certainly worse for freedom.
I'm not sure supplanted is right here. TikTok right now feels more like it's taking the role of Snapchat/Vine/Instagram. Part of the never-ending rollover of new apps for that sort of thing. Time will tell, but it doesn't feel like it will kill Facebook.
Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request
#285So are you saying that companies operating in New Zealand shouldn't follow New Zealand law to ban the Christchurch shooter's manifesto?
Zoom says it is a US company, and the account it banned was a US account. Imagine if everyone did that. China doesn’t get to make their laws for our companies to enforce for us. We have our own laws. Freedom of speech would be dead otherwise. Zoom needs to own up to being a Chinese company or stop bowing to the CCP, at least outside of China.
The US government is currently trying to extradite a Chinese citizen from Canada for defrauding a British bank. The idea that a country's laws only apply to its own citizens or companies did not originate in China.
Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
> and another to enforce one country's geopolitical aspirations across international borders What China does is small potatoes compared to the US. The US fined a French bank $9 billion for violating US sanctions.
it is small potatoes but it's also whataboutism. the article and discussion isn't about the US. There is plenty of room to judge individual cases on their own merit. Just because this is now in the news doesn't mean we should stop discussing it or feel obligated to bring up every bad thing the US does while criticizing China/others. I personally don't think the US is worse but I think US allies are too weak to put pr…
> it is small potatoes but it's also whataboutism. the article and discussion isn't about the US.
It's fair to critique that I shouldn't be turning this into a critique of the US. That said, my main point is that Zoom isn't really doing anything unprecedented in "enforcing one country's geopolitical aspirations across international borders.". Basically every other international company is forced to do the same when it comes to sanctions.
Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request
#287Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nobody is going to disagree that the US treats its citizens better, but we're talking about country's foreign influence here. China doesn't cripple the economy or bomb other countries they disagree with.
> China doesn't cripple the economy or bomb other countries they disagree with. Is that a bad thing if we're trying to promulgate our values?
Yes it is, no matter how good you think your values are the end never justifies the means
Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request
#288Earlier quoted context omitted.
While Facebook and MySpace are different in many ways, the average lifespan of a S&P 500 company is below 20 years. Facebook could very well be an outlier. If it isn't, it could definitely go away in the coming years. In any case, that shows that its revenue/income is not a predictor of anything. When a company spirals down, it does so at an accelerating rate and can quickly burn through any amount of cash.
Facebook is very far from an average SP500 company, as are the rest of the big tech companies. They drive the market indices with how much investors think they are worth and will be worth. And they have levels of cash that tech (or any) companies in decades past could only dream of.
I'm sure the executives of Enron and Kodak felt similarly. However, no level of corporate success is granted indefinitely.
Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request
#289These skirmishes (Zoom now, TikTok earlier and the ongoing Huawei one) make for interesting shows, for those outside China and the US. China uses nationalism as the excuse for censorship. As long as you don't criticize China you are free to do anything you want. The US uses morality as the excuse for censorship. As long as you don't do anything that violates that particular notion of morality (the American way of lif…
Would you please give me an example of something that the US government is currently censoring based on morality?
Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request
#290Earlier quoted context omitted.
As is brought up every time this is mentioned, freedom of speech is the freedom from suppression of speech, not the guarantee of universal availability of a specific platform for speech. The latter never has been and never should be enshrined in law.
Here I would disagree, freedom of speech is an ideal, and the constitutional amendment was based on that ideal. Universal platforms for speech are somewhat of a new concept, but there is still some precedent against de-platforming, for example with John Adams and his defense of the British soldiers in the Boston massacare[1], a precedent that still holds (held) with attorneys defending very unsavory characters not be…
If you live in China you will quickly realise the restriction of freedom of speech is quite limited. It actually became a phenomenon very recently (2010 onwards in my opinion). Even on highly 'scrutinised' Wechat there are many posts and rumours with titles 'read before it (gets) taken down'. The "lack of political freedom" is mostly about the same old scandals. Yes I agree it would be great to have civilised 'free to express' platform but culture norms differ greatly.