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Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

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Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#231

Post by pnako »

alisonatwork wrote: post #209
pnako wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In China, political dissenters are "de-platformed" (what a nice weasel word for "censored") by companies as instructed by the government; in America, they are censored by companies as instructed by angry mobs. It doesn't make as much a difference as you think.

I live in China. It makes a very big difference. "Angry mobs", as you put it, are just ordinary people freely expressing their opinions to companies that they choose to do business with. No company is forced to comply with the requests of an "angry mob". No government agency is going to punish a company that doesn't comply. Nobody is getting thrown in prison for something they said online. Please, it does a disservic…

You moved the goalpost from censorship to prison.

We were talking about people being banned/censored/"de-platformed" from social media companies, in China and in the west. I'm aware that, otherwise, human rights abuse are way worse in China.

As for the idea that abuse only matters when done by a government, it's absurd. We're seeing now private companies talking about censoring the US President, so it's pretty clear who has most power. You can hide behind technicalities like them being private companies or whatever (I note that this argument does not hold when a small mom and pop company refuses to bake a cake, but apparently much larger companies can do whatever they want), but it just means that those companies have the power to censor speech _in practice_ (which is what actually matters in the end), and at the moment they're following angry mobs and not elected officials to define those censorship policies.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#232

Post by jrockway »

katbyte wrote: post #203
komali2 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the USA did allow violence against democratic organizers last week. But those same organizers weren't shipped to Guantanamo for indefinite periods of time for "reeducation." The USA suffers from some of what it accuses the PRC - it is still not the PRC.

This. As outraged as I have been by America’s actions towards their protestors it’s honestly a lot different then HK let along tiananmen square (which my iPhone refuses to recognize.. well that’s fucked up yet expected I guess, and least Taiwan and 🇹🇼 Are there) Trump is doing trump but a lot of politicians and others have spoken out and marched - would that happen in China?

My iPhone doesn't attempt to censor tiananmen square. Typing "tian" into the home screen search bar yields "tiananmen square", "tiana", "tiananmen square massacre", and "tiana musarra".

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#233

Post by dumb1224 »

jcytong wrote: post #215
dumb1224 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US does not put hundreds of thousands of people in camps because of their religion, I have to say that China did a lot of things wrong but it couldn't care any less about religion. Most of the issues aren't religion related. It only makes matters more opaque and hide real issues. Hence I disagree with debates/discussions based on perceived perspectives and use these labels such as 'attack on religion'.

It's about control. The CCP sees religion as a threat because it challenges the party's atheistic view. The underlying issue is the rejection of a pluralistic society which religion is a part of it as well as language, way of life, etc... https://nypost.com/2020/02/01/how-chinas-xi-jinping-destroye... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict#Re-education... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Tibetan_unrest

Don't get me wrong, of course I knew it's about regional control. But even the wiki entry acknowledges that religious freedom is different in different regions of China. Other regions don't have any restriction at all. Hence my point that accusing China for religious repression is missing the point. It doesn't justify its actions but the issues are more deeply geopolitical.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#234

Post by Aunche »

monocasa wrote: post #20
gonehome wrote: post #14

“The reality is Zoom operates in more than 80 countries and continues to expand, which requires compliance with local laws even as Zoom seeks to promote the open exchange of ideas.“ This kind of rationalization isn’t just a problem with Zoom, Apple does the same thing - blocking podcasts and other apps in the Chinese market (also the Taiwan flag emoji). This is wrong. What’s legal and what’s right are not the same th…

Also, as absolutely reprehensible Apple's similar actions are, Zoom canceled _a US based account_ because of a Chinese request. It's one thing to be all "we comply with local laws", and another to enforce one country's geopolitical aspirations across international borders. Like, I think companies should take a stand and both aren't acceptable, but Zoom takes new, additional steps here.

> and another to enforce one country's geopolitical aspirations across international borders

What China does is small potatoes compared to the US. The US fined a French bank $9 billion for violating US sanctions.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#236

Post by lotsofpulp »

DeusExMachina wrote: post #195
lotsofpulp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FB has had solid revenue and net income for many years, so much that it’s one of the most valuable companies in the world. It’s not comparable to MySpace, and definitely isn’t going anywhere anytime soon.

While Facebook and MySpace are different in many ways, the average lifespan of a S&P 500 company is below 20 years. Facebook could very well be an outlier. If it isn't, it could definitely go away in the coming years. In any case, that shows that its revenue/income is not a predictor of anything. When a company spirals down, it does so at an accelerating rate and can quickly burn through any amount of cash.

Facebook is very far from an average SP500 company, as are the rest of the big tech companies. They drive the market indices with how much investors think they are worth and will be worth. And they have levels of cash that tech (or any) companies in decades past could only dream of.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#237

Post by jatone »

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #37

Human rights are more important than corporate rights. But where does that leave us in the situation, whereas others have said Apple cuts off apps like the one in Hong Kong, and they use the excuse of local laws. Apple and zoom both need to stop enforcing Chinese law, or stop seeing the benefits of being an American company. The ability to complain about your government, to point out injustice, it's a human right, no…

america should be cutting ties with china and encouraging our allies to do the same. enough of this shit. china is a bad actor and should be treated as such on the world stage (same with russia).

there is 0 reason to do business with china beyond cheap labor and there are other options for labor.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#238

Post by growlist »

gonehome wrote: post #14

“The reality is Zoom operates in more than 80 countries and continues to expand, which requires compliance with local laws even as Zoom seeks to promote the open exchange of ideas.“ This kind of rationalization isn’t just a problem with Zoom, Apple does the same thing - blocking podcasts and other apps in the Chinese market (also the Taiwan flag emoji). This is wrong. What’s legal and what’s right are not the same th…

This is textbook globalism. If we don't fight it, it will end up making the whole world a horrible place to live.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#239

Post by HenryBemis »

gonehome wrote: post #14

“The reality is Zoom operates in more than 80 countries and continues to expand, which requires compliance with local laws even as Zoom seeks to promote the open exchange of ideas.“ This kind of rationalization isn’t just a problem with Zoom, Apple does the same thing - blocking podcasts and other apps in the Chinese market (also the Taiwan flag emoji). This is wrong. What’s legal and what’s right are not the same th…

> authoritarian leaders will they comply?

Apologies for the seemingly seagull-ish comment/rant, but it is 100% true: "money talks, bullshit walks". Zoom is not going to miss out a 1bn ppl market because of ethics. Apple will not miss out a 1bn market because of ethics. Blackberry handed the keys to the kingdom so fast the heads of the tortured people were spinning, and the tale goes on and on. Autocratic regimes play by our (civilized) rules when they claim "local laws, terrorists, pedophiles", etc.)(hey our govs use the same narrative, right?)

We don't stoop to their (autocratic regimes) level and ignore there legal (and unethical requests).

Capitalism (aka money flowing from country A to country B) is cross-border, freedom-agnostic, and amoral (not IM-moral)(utter lack or morals instead of bad morals).

I use a phone made in China, and thus allow a USA company reduce the number of workers in the USA market and increase dividend to its shareholders. That empowers China to continue its thing since all they care for is my money. Not my attention and my opinions. In the end, I help them get the power they seek. This is why we placed embargo to Iran, Russia, NK.. to teach them a lesson. But China? Too much £€¥$ at stake to isolate them.

May the one without sin cast the first stone. We are all in this together unless we ALL boycott Zoom, Apple, Google, Cancerbook, and the rest until they either help CHANGE China, or we let them isolate and starve until the people will start the fight back.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#240

Post by twodave »

chii wrote: post #200
jobigoud wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument that if they don't do it another one will do it is constantly used to justify unethical things. It just shows that money is more important than compromising one's values.

I'm gonna play the devils advocate, and say that money _is_ more important than morals. And it's because americans have a lot of money (collectively) that they can enjoy having high morals. So i don't disagree that zoom is lacking in morals, but i also have to agree with what they did - for it is the only course of action that leads to them "winning" economically.

Not picking a side on Zoom, but the idea that people in poorer countries can’t restrain their impulses to a high degree is preposterous bordering on insulting.

The US doesn’t censor based on a moral compass, either. They censor based on an idea of (extremely) basic decency that actually permits a lot of immorality.

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