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Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

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Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#221

Post by fit2rule »

GhostVII wrote: post #68
joyfulmantis wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that your country knows best and that your countries companies can feel free to ignore other countries laws while operating in them is -- imperialism.

I think it is fair to say that the laws in the US are objectively better than in China. The US does not put hundreds of thousands of people in camps because of their religion, or heavily censor the internet, or kill hundreds or thousands of civilians to suppress pro-democracy protests.

The US DOES imprison hundreds of thousands of people who do not agree with its political position, and more to the point the USA has been the #1 violator of human rights in the last two decades, a fact that is conveniently forgotten whenever Americans decide that China is their latest bad-guy.

Or, did you forget the 4 million innocent people whose lives were lost in America's illegal wars?

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#222

Post by jcytong »

gonehome wrote: post #78
mkhpalm wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While emotionally I agree with everything you said. Realistically I wonder what anybody who talks like this would do when somebody with a very official legal document shows up on your doorstep. Its not as simple as it seems and most people want as little to do with problems like this. Who are we really mad at here? Zoom or the CCP for essentially forcing their will on helpless entities?

Yeah I think you’re right and honestly it’s hard to know what you’d do without being in that situation. I’d hope I’d refuse to rationalize it. I’d like to think that, but few people actually get that kind of character test for real (and even fewer pass it when they do). As far as Zoom and the CCP, I think it’s reasonable to be upset with both. Zoom isn’t helpless, they have agency and could choose to do the right thi…

Yes it's hard so it's up to the consumer because we also have agency - to stop and say no to businesses like that.

It's the CCP playbook. To entice western companies with its lucrative market and at the same time continue its totalitarian regime and oppression. It becomes harder and harder for these companies to "do the right thing" as its influence and market grows. It'll continue to feed the "China way" as simply an alternative to the democracy.

At some point, it becomes so big that it's impossible to reverse course.

The reality is that when other companies see that Zoom can get by, it'd be harder for them say no because looking the other way when the bully is around becomes the norm.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#223

Post by tatersolid »

echlebek wrote: post #166
remus wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly, I don't think we can really hold the US up as some sort of bastion of moral excellence. As a non US citizen you have very little right to privacy and the US government will use this against you (see: forcibly having to unlock your devices so border agents can search them). On balance I think the US is a lot better than China, but there's a lot of room for improvement.

Luckily, you don't have to hold up the US as a bastion to criticize China. They can both be criticized independently.

> They can both be criticized independently.

But not inside China. And therein lies the great difference.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#224

Post by fit2rule »

Lio wrote: post #157
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re on shaky ground there. The US does imprison more of its citizens on a per capita basis than any other comparable nation. The US isn’t the moral beacon it was billed to be. I’ll stop there.

As long as the Americans can publicly point out that their leader is a bit fat without expecting to be punished they can point out the suppressing free speech is wrong. To be a moral beacon here America doesn’t have to be perfect. They just have to be able to say that their hypothetical leader is doing a bad job and that he should be replaced ...or not of they want to. From that all else follows.

Your argument falls flat as soon as Americans start protesting the innocent lives lost in America's illegal wars - at this point, American censorship and attacks on independent thought match those of the PRC, even exceeding their capabilities in some cases (Assange, etc.)

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#225

Post by fit2rule »

pnako wrote: post #85
deathgrips wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call it whatever you want, I'll take the imperialist country that doesn't censor activists' accounts.

And which country would that be? Even if the US, peer pressure is often enough to get political dissenters banned from their social media accounts, jobs, etc. Many people use the cope out that it's different when it's done by the government or by a private company, but I don't see it as being that different.

ahem Julian Assange cough

America is no better than China when it comes to repressing dissent. American military industrial pharmaceutical organisations are better at usurping insurrection and revolutionary movements, however.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#226

Post by christophilus »

lukevdp wrote: post #102
gonehome wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I’m saying that there isn’t an immediate answer to any of these questions and companies need to evaluate it themselves when deciding. The country’s own legal framework isn’t enough to decide for you. I think your moral relativism is lame, both here and in your other comments. It might feel good to offload that responsibility, but if you do, and you operate in a country that has problematic laws, then your self-as…

The choice for companies is to either follow a country’s laws, or not operate in that country. It’s not moral relativism, it’s just business.

[flagged]

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#227

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

katbyte wrote: post #202
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the feeling there is no bad press in this context. Zoom gets lots of free press exposure and gets to point out how they are improving.

I didn’t really care until now - and I won’t use zoom for any more personal conversations and am about to email my employer to move away from Zoom for this reason. So yes bad press?

Only if their daily / weekly / monthly active users decreases

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#228

Post by lmz »

summerlight wrote: post #220
lmz wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they not have a local Chinese subsidiary that hires their employees there?

Almost every multinational companies have some level of presence in China, even Google has offices there. If we apply your logic, China should be allowed to order search and seizure warrants to those companies for any user information that might related to their national security. Of course, this is absolutely non-sense.

Well isn't it just a matter of what penalties China can enforce on the presence there if they refuse to comply? If the majority of their tech team is there it gets hard to argue that they have no access. Maybe they just threatened someone with the access and with not enough time to speak to legal?

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#229

Post by AsyncAwait »

gonehome wrote: post #14

“The reality is Zoom operates in more than 80 countries and continues to expand, which requires compliance with local laws even as Zoom seeks to promote the open exchange of ideas.“ This kind of rationalization isn’t just a problem with Zoom, Apple does the same thing - blocking podcasts and other apps in the Chinese market (also the Taiwan flag emoji). This is wrong. What’s legal and what’s right are not the same th…

> and in countries with bad laws

If EARN IT passes, the U.S. would be one of these countries.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#230

Post by jcytong »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #77

It is troubling, but, as others have mentioned, Zoom is not alone here. What I do not really get is why? Is the Chinese market really that important to Zoom ( especially given nascent anti Chinese sentiment in US )?

China's the second largest economy and growing which will make them the largest in the foreseeable future.

Wall street is pretty indifferent when it comes to people being locked up/killed in a foreign country (heck probably in their own country).

Where as Zoom CEO, your stock price determines your bonus, your continued employment, but probably most importantly your employees employment and well being. Given a lot of Zoom staff are in China, there is a non-zero risk of their well being at play.

Obviously, they care about their public image too in the US. But China's market is very enticing. :(

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