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Ask HN: Tips for students before starting their first job

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Re: Ask HN: Tips for students before starting their first job

#21

Post by AmericanChopper »

ergocoder wrote: post #20
adingus wrote: post #6

When you are new, say yes to everything. Stay busy, if you have nothing to do, ask for something. You want to take the load off your team members where you can to contribute & build some clout/respect. Find the most knowledgeable team member and shadow them. Real jobs are just college group projects that never end.

> Real jobs are just college group projects that never end. For a decent company, the differences are: * The skill set of group members probably suits the tasks (e.g. some good at leading, some good at coordinating, some good at coding) * The reward is real and can be life-changing. (e.g. becoming millionaires) * The punishment is real (e.g. being fired)

I’d say at least two out of those three points are usually true.

Re: Ask HN: Tips for students before starting their first job

#22

Post by fsloth »

"Which advice did/would have helped you landing your first job after university?"

I got no advice, I just tried to find something interesting (that I was not really competent enough to do). But it turned out well.

In the large scale life is ruled by statistics. In the small, personal scale by serendipity and chance. You live on the personal scale.

"And whats your best tip for life in general?"

Try to find a domain in which to work which is intrinsically interesting for you. You. Not the general public. Not interested in that seems to be trendy? That's totally fine.

Try to be strategic with your career. Try to think time to time where you want to be in five years. You need a plan with alternative scenarios. They all probably go wrong - and that's fine. They are just a framework for your own reflection. But you need them.

Read biographies of people who've worked in your or similar domain.

Find out what the other guy is thinking. Not interested in management? Read a few books on management anyway. And don't use your knowledge in discussions. Because it will sound (no matter how you put it) like you read a few books on topic X and now think you are an expert.

There is a good book on every subject.

The most critical decision for your happiness will be who you will marry.

Re: Ask HN: Tips for students before starting their first job

#23

Post by fsloth »

khazhoux wrote: post #14

My pro-tip for when you land your first job: You'll be tempted your first week to " clean up " the code you find there. Don't.

This in an excellent advice. In real world the value of a codebase is not in it's aesthetics. It's how and what sort of added value it bring's to it's users. And how much value your employer can capture from it (i.e. it's price).

The question you should ask is not "how to make this more beautiful" but "how to bring in more value to the customer". Don't go on a refactoring crusade alone.

If you want to become a valued individual contributor try to understand the added value created by the product as much as you try to understand the codebase.

Re: Ask HN: Tips for students before starting their first job

#24

Post by fsloth »

hnruss wrote: post #16

Find different ways to collaborate with others on software. Learn how to review code and how to respond when your code is critiqued. Contribute to medium-sized open source projects that are still maintained and have a fair number of users. As for life in general: learn about personal finance. Once you’ve got a decent salary, you’ll need to know how to invest for retirement, save up for a house, pay down debt, etc.

"Contribute to medium-sized open source projects that are still maintained and have a fair number of users."

I've never contributed to an open source project and my career has evolved just fine, though.

I think this audience over stresses the need of open source contributions. It's fine if you don't want to work in the open and don't want to share your code.

Natural curiosity of open codebases is a good thing to have, though :)

I've known several excellent 9-17 coders who work, and then go home to do other things.

Re: Ask HN: Tips for students before starting their first job

#25

Post by Izkata »

adingus wrote: post #6

When you are new, say yes to everything. Stay busy, if you have nothing to do, ask for something. You want to take the load off your team members where you can to contribute & build some clout/respect. Find the most knowledgeable team member and shadow them. Real jobs are just college group projects that never end.

> When you are new, say yes to everything.

Anecdote: Back when I was first starting, we were experimenting with different agile styles, and were pulling cases off a backlog whenever we needed something new to do. It wasn't strictly ordered, so you could pull off the top several if there was something you wanted to do more.

The top two items were getting skipped for a long time, so I took one and stumbled around trying to figure it out. Ended up asking a few newbie questions (non-technical, about how the feature was intended to work) that our manager had no answer for, resulting in the case getting officially bumped way down. Then tried the second, and the same thing happened.

Even though I technically didn't get anything done (which did feel kinda bad at the time), I learned a decent amount about how those systems functioned, got rid of some eyesores, and brought it to everyone's attention that the cases hadn't been sufficiently fleshed out. Net positive, I think.

Re: Ask HN: Tips for students before starting their first job

#26

Post by vbsteven »

adingus wrote: post #6

When you are new, say yes to everything. Stay busy, if you have nothing to do, ask for something. You want to take the load off your team members where you can to contribute & build some clout/respect. Find the most knowledgeable team member and shadow them. Real jobs are just college group projects that never end.

While saying yes to everything is an interesting way to learn new things. Keep in mind that saying no is also a skill to be learned.

As a person currently struggling with always-say-yes related burnout symptoms I cannot stress enough how important it is to manage your workload to keep yourself sane. Balance is key

Re: Ask HN: Tips for students before starting their first job

#27

Post by fsloth »

axegon_ wrote: post #10

A few things off the top of my head, no particular order: * Read the documentation. I can't stress enough on that. * Don't over-engineer stuff. Keep it plain and simple. Remember - most of your co-workers will have a lot of experience and you won't be able to impress them with something revolutionary. Chances are, they've seen it and had it for breakfast a million times. * Don't be afraid to ask, even if it seems lik…

"Read the documentation. I can't stress enough on that."

There are lot's of production codebases with very little or no documentation, though.

"Don't over-engineer stuff. Keep it plain and simple."

This in an excellent advice.

"Pay close attention to the most experienced people and try to understand their thought process and mentally train yourself to be able to think like them"

Yes, this is similar apprenticeship. Just being able to work with talented people is an outstanding thing to have. On the other hand, if you are a junior contributor, but can't find the obvious master programmer around, that is a huge red flag that the organization is filled with mediocrity through and through and it probably would be best to work somewhere else.

If you actually feel you are the most talented programmer, and are confident of your skills, that is an important datapoint. If your organization does not value your skills in couple of years you should definetly move on.

Re: Ask HN: Tips for students before starting their first job

#30

Post by axegon_ »

fsloth wrote: post #27
axegon_ wrote: post #10

A few things off the top of my head, no particular order: * Read the documentation. I can't stress enough on that. * Don't over-engineer stuff. Keep it plain and simple. Remember - most of your co-workers will have a lot of experience and you won't be able to impress them with something revolutionary. Chances are, they've seen it and had it for breakfast a million times. * Don't be afraid to ask, even if it seems lik…

"Read the documentation. I can't stress enough on that." There are lot's of production codebases with very little or no documentation, though. "Don't over-engineer stuff. Keep it plain and simple." This in an excellent advice. "Pay close attention to the most experienced people and try to understand their thought process and mentally train yourself to be able to think like them" Yes, this is similar apprenticeship. J…

> There are lot's of production codebases with very little or no documentation, though.

Indeed. But the advise is equally as valid for libraries or frameworks used in a project, which as a junior developer, chances are you have very little experience with. Read those :)

> On the other hand, if you are a junior contributor, but can't find the obvious master programmer around, that is a huge red flag that the organization is filled with mediocrity through and through and it probably would be best to work somewhere else.

Also correct. That said, you can go through the history of the project you are working on and see who's done the heavy lifting, granted they are still around.

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