Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request • Hacker News Board

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#141

Post by baybal2 » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 7:01 AM UTC

chrismcb wrote: post #136

baybal2 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies that work to suppress the rights of citizens are complicit in that suppression and its legality is irrelevant. 100% true. American corporations, and businessmen who collaborated with NSDAP in jew gassing "because it was the law," well, just did what they did. It made them genocide collaborators, and criminals regardless if they did it under the law, or not. As ancient Romans were saying "a crime can be a…

Morality and crime aren't the same thing. So yes, a crime can be made more or less criminal under a law. That is by definition.

Whose definition? I think, a century spent under nation state governments has erased the line in between the illegal, and criminal.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#142

Post by ShorsHammer » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 7:06 AM UTC

GhostVII wrote: post #68

joyfulmantis wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that your country knows best and that your countries companies can feel free to ignore other countries laws while operating in them is -- imperialism.

I think it is fair to say that the laws in the US are objectively better than in China. The US does not put hundreds of thousands of people in camps because of their religion, or heavily censor the internet, or kill hundreds or thousands of civilians to suppress pro-democracy protests.

> The US does not put hundreds of thousands of people in camps because of their religion

And yet still has the highest incarceration rates on Earth by far, vast majority of whom are black and haven't actually been convicted of a crime.

Feel free to justify that however you want.

The way I see it is that either: the laws/justice system aren't better at all, law enforcement is magically more efficient than the rest of the developed world or US citizens commit criminal acts at levels well beyond anywhere else.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#143

Post by lrem » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 7:08 AM UTC

xster wrote: post #27

I mean our Twitter and Facebook have been shutting down accounts from elected offices of NATO "targets" like Venezuela and Iran for a while now https://thegrayzone.com/2020/01/12/us-pressure-social-media-... . I don't see people up in arms saying "legality is irrelevant".

Twitter and Facebook are American companies, with the US being part of NATO. Zoom tries to pretend it's not a Chinese company.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#144

Post by 6AA4FD » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 7:09 AM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #97

monocasa wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, as absolutely reprehensible Apple's similar actions are, Zoom canceled _a US based account_ because of a Chinese request. It's one thing to be all "we comply with local laws", and another to enforce one country's geopolitical aspirations across international borders. Like, I think companies should take a stand and both aren't acceptable, but Zoom takes new, additional steps here.

> Companies that work to suppress the rights of citizens are complicit in that suppression and its legality is irrelevant. 100% true. American corporations, and businessmen who collaborated with NSDAP in jew gassing "because it was the law," well, just did what they did. It made them genocide collaborators, and criminals regardless if they did it under the law, or not. As ancient Romans were saying "a crime can be a…

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but whether or not people doing morally reprehensible (but legal) things in third reich germany were criminals was a substantial point of contention for legal philosophers of that time.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#145

Post by malka » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 7:09 AM UTC

Zoom is a blatant CCP trojan horse. It is very clear where Eric Yuan's loyalty is. And it is not toward the USA.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#146

Post by cammil » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 7:09 AM UTC

Its easy to blame zoom and Apple and other companies, but if our own elected governments can't stand up to oppressive regimes, why should we expect a private company to?

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#147

Post by BiteCode_dev » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 7:10 AM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #14

“The reality is Zoom operates in more than 80 countries and continues to expand, which requires compliance with local laws even as Zoom seeks to promote the open exchange of ideas.“ This kind of rationalization isn’t just a problem with Zoom, Apple does the same thing - blocking podcasts and other apps in the Chinese market (also the Taiwan flag emoji). This is wrong. What’s legal and what’s right are not the same th…

The alternative is to not be in China at all.

The problem with that of course, if that the softwares that do comply will suddently win an unfair market advantage against the ones taking a moral stand.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#148

Post by maxwindiff » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 7:10 AM UTC

honzzz wrote: post #81

darawk wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is kind of a weird problem though. It seems like the equilibrium effect of not obeying Chinese laws will be that the companies are simply excluded from the Chinese market. I'm not sure how that really helps anyone. It feels like a moral victory, but i'm not sure that it actually helps anyone. It seems like the right approach might be to comply as minimally and poorly as you can get away with, while steadily tryi…

Although your opinion seems reasonable, I disagree based on my experience growing up in a communist country. The problem is that there is some weird moral feedback loop; each little steep towards complying with something problematic makes you change, you rationalize it and this makes you more likely to walk further in that direction. The concept you describe, comply and liberalize... I never observed it in reality. P…

This. Also we should remember that companies are not a hive mind but are made up with individuals. Employees who want to take a stand will tend to be pushed out by those who are willing to compromise, as the latter would have better results to show of.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#149

Post by xyproto » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 7:10 AM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #20

gonehome wrote: post #14

“The reality is Zoom operates in more than 80 countries and continues to expand, which requires compliance with local laws even as Zoom seeks to promote the open exchange of ideas.“ This kind of rationalization isn’t just a problem with Zoom, Apple does the same thing - blocking podcasts and other apps in the Chinese market (also the Taiwan flag emoji). This is wrong. What’s legal and what’s right are not the same th…

Also, as absolutely reprehensible Apple's similar actions are, Zoom canceled _a US based account_ because of a Chinese request. It's one thing to be all "we comply with local laws", and another to enforce one country's geopolitical aspirations across international borders. Like, I think companies should take a stand and both aren't acceptable, but Zoom takes new, additional steps here.

But that was a mistake, and they promptly restored the US based account?

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#150

Post by gorgoiler » Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 7:10 AM UTC

Piffle! At least they only had to suspend an account!

Imagine the outrage if Zoom had been complicit in adding backdoors, or conducting surveillance at the implicit or explicit demands of the state.

(I think Snowden even once claimed Apple’s iOS has an NSA backdoor?)