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Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

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Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#121

Post by Melting_Harps »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #89
GhostVII wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is fair to say that the laws in the US are objectively better than in China. The US does not put hundreds of thousands of people in camps because of their religion, or heavily censor the internet, or kill hundreds or thousands of civilians to suppress pro-democracy protests.

You’re on shaky ground there. The US does imprison more of its citizens on a per capita basis than any other comparable nation. The US isn’t the moral beacon it was billed to be. I’ll stop there.

> The USA suffers from some of what it accuses the PRC - it is still not the PRC.

> The US isn’t the moral beacon it was billed to be.

Agreed. I think one difference being that Citizens can, with great personal peril to their own safety and well being, use the Right to assemble and protest to effect change to address systemic corruption.

As an activist with a background in protests in various demos myself, I just wonder what the World would have looked like if this had happened in 2008. There have been countless examples of senseless, illegal police brutality and murder during that time. I'm no fan of the movement but Occupy members were tazed, beaten, sprayed on a regular basis; and most of them were middle class white US Citizens.

The Legal system has not been a viable option for most to find redress to these ills, let alone justice, so they make taking to the streets the only option.

In the PRC doing that means you will be disspeared, and it can cost you your life if you speak out as seen with Li Wenlian, who's wife just had their child:

https://tucson.com/news/world/widow-of-chinese-whistleblower...

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#122

Post by NicoJuicy »

monocasa wrote: post #20
gonehome wrote: post #14

“The reality is Zoom operates in more than 80 countries and continues to expand, which requires compliance with local laws even as Zoom seeks to promote the open exchange of ideas.“ This kind of rationalization isn’t just a problem with Zoom, Apple does the same thing - blocking podcasts and other apps in the Chinese market (also the Taiwan flag emoji). This is wrong. What’s legal and what’s right are not the same th…

Also, as absolutely reprehensible Apple's similar actions are, Zoom canceled _a US based account_ because of a Chinese request. It's one thing to be all "we comply with local laws", and another to enforce one country's geopolitical aspirations across international borders. Like, I think companies should take a stand and both aren't acceptable, but Zoom takes new, additional steps here.

I'm against China here.

But people should realize that the US law is almost forced to every online company/user.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#123

Post by vertis »

blackoil wrote: post #117
baybal2 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies that work to suppress the rights of citizens are complicit in that suppression and its legality is irrelevant. 100% true. American corporations, and businessmen who collaborated with NSDAP in jew gassing "because it was the law," well, just did what they did. It made them genocide collaborators, and criminals regardless if they did it under the law, or not. As ancient Romans were saying "a crime can be a…

Say a 21 year old Indian goes to London and drinks some whiskey, is it a crime? because, it is a crime in India!

Or for that matter an 18 yr old US citizen visiting UK/Australia where the drinking age is different. Or the reverse of Australians using Cannabis while in the US.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#124

Post by baybal2 »

blackoil wrote: post #117
baybal2 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies that work to suppress the rights of citizens are complicit in that suppression and its legality is irrelevant. 100% true. American corporations, and businessmen who collaborated with NSDAP in jew gassing "because it was the law," well, just did what they did. It made them genocide collaborators, and criminals regardless if they did it under the law, or not. As ancient Romans were saying "a crime can be a…

Say a 21 year old Indian goes to London and drinks some whiskey, is it a crime? because, it is a crime in India!

I'd say the meaning of a crime has drifted over centuries. The criteria of a crime has shifted from something very objective, to more casuistics of all kinds.

It got from something what would've gotten somebody onto pitchforks upon a first sight, to long and arduous arguing about textual meaning of laws, rather than long, and arduous moral judgement of early Greco-Roman trials

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#125

Post by dehrmann »

runawaybottle wrote: post #9

Does anyone know if Zoom is built on any open source video streaming tech? I’m have a hard time believing their product isn’t going to meet massive amounts of competition very soon. Edit: After some Googling - https://webrtchacks.com/zoom-avoids-using-webrtc/

> I’m have a hard time believing their product isn’t going to meet massive amounts of competition very soon.

There have been several vendors doing this for years. Google Hangouts, Skype, BlueJeans, Webex. Zoom just did it better. Except for security; Zoom doesn't understand security.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#126

Post by gonehome »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #120
gonehome wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that we all have responsibility for the software we put out into the world, and we're complicit in how it's used. It's wrong to offload that ethical responsibility entirely to others. Things get better because we want them to be better, as people that build these things we have to care.

Surely it doesn’t come as a surprise to you that there exist in this world who no only don’t think like you... There are people in this world who are happy to write cigs than can be weaponised against those they disagree with. So in that sense, I’d suggest you’re wrong. Software Developers are not a homogeneous while who do or should think like you. Whether or not we agree that way of being is reprehensible is a diff…

Sure - there are people that don't agree with me (often a lot of people). I think we actually agree more than we disagree on this.

If people are doing what they think is ethical and they really think it's the right thing then at least that's consistent.

I might not agree - I might think it's terrible even, but there's genuine disagreement there and genuine discussion can be had about it (assuming discussion is still allowed).

What I'm arguing against is more about the people that know better, or are doing something that's in direct conflict with what they believe to be right. They rationalize it by off-loading that ethical responsibility to others (things like the legal framework of the country they're operating in, it's not my place to determine policy, etc.). They tell themselves their mere presence is helpful, or that if it wasn't them it'd be someone else who doesn't care as much as they do.

They structure something like this in their mind for the purpose of being able to hold these contradictory opinions that enable them to do something they think is wrong.

That's mostly what I'm fighting against.

It's one thing to argue that censorship of citizens is a good idea (I obviously disagree), but at least that's a real position.

These other ones are mostly rationalized bullshit.

Evil triumphs when good people do nothing, but it also triumphs when good people do evil things while telling themselves it's okay.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#127

Post by dehrmann »

MintelIE wrote: post #101

Most Universities and companies really don’t care, it seems. Zoom is one of the many shady Chinese companies (yes I am aware of Zoom’s recent change in status here) who we just do business with no matter HOW harmful it could potentially be. Recently there was concern about how certain anti-cheat software included with Chinese games is an effective root kit as well. And several large American firms have been help Chin…

Universities, I get--there isn't much of an espionage risk with course content--but companies should be worried. China has a reputation for corporate espionage, and while Zoom is nominally an American company, headlines like this remind us it's also very Chinese (dev office, data centers).

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#128

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

baybal2 wrote: post #97
monocasa wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, as absolutely reprehensible Apple's similar actions are, Zoom canceled _a US based account_ because of a Chinese request. It's one thing to be all "we comply with local laws", and another to enforce one country's geopolitical aspirations across international borders. Like, I think companies should take a stand and both aren't acceptable, but Zoom takes new, additional steps here.

> Companies that work to suppress the rights of citizens are complicit in that suppression and its legality is irrelevant. 100% true. American corporations, and businessmen who collaborated with NSDAP in jew gassing "because it was the law," well, just did what they did. It made them genocide collaborators, and criminals regardless if they did it under the law, or not. As ancient Romans were saying "a crime can be a…

> A word crime in a sense as a fault, as something objectively morally reprehensible itself

If you want to appeal to a “crime” beyond what people decide is wrong, you are starting to smuggle in an objective moral standard. I think that is hard without appealing to a God or gods.

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#129

Post by vinay427 »

blackoil wrote: post #117
baybal2 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies that work to suppress the rights of citizens are complicit in that suppression and its legality is irrelevant. 100% true. American corporations, and businessmen who collaborated with NSDAP in jew gassing "because it was the law," well, just did what they did. It made them genocide collaborators, and criminals regardless if they did it under the law, or not. As ancient Romans were saying "a crime can be a…

Say a 21 year old Indian goes to London and drinks some whiskey, is it a crime? because, it is a crime in India!

While your points stands, it's not actually a crime in several states in India.

Source, unfortunately lacking references in some places: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_laws_of_India

Re: Zoom Acknowledges It Suspended Activists' Accounts at China's Request

#130

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

gonehome wrote: post #126
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely it doesn’t come as a surprise to you that there exist in this world who no only don’t think like you... There are people in this world who are happy to write cigs than can be weaponised against those they disagree with. So in that sense, I’d suggest you’re wrong. Software Developers are not a homogeneous while who do or should think like you. Whether or not we agree that way of being is reprehensible is a diff…

Sure - there are people that don't agree with me (often a lot of people). I think we actually agree more than we disagree on this. If people are doing what they think is ethical and they really think it's the right thing then at least that's consistent. I might not agree - I might think it's terrible even, but there's genuine disagreement there and genuine discussion can be had about it (assuming discussion is still…

Yep, ok, gotcha.

Thanks for the conversation and your comprehensive responses.

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