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Young U.S. men having a lot less sex in the 21st century, study shows

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Re: Young U.S. men having a lot less sex in the 21st century, study shows

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is exactly right. Apps like Tinder that normalized online "dating" (before the apps it was much less common among younger people) have allowed the "apex predator" men with good jobs/looks/personalities to have sex on demand with virtually unlimited numbers of women. This has also been made possible because a lot more women are now willing to be in non-exclusive sexual relationships at the beginning when…

It's not really a powder keg because we really don't suffer as a society if the excluded men don't get to have kids.

Your view is extremely narrow and inconsiderate of the feelings of the men who've been excluded. Indeed, @wutbrodo's comment when a population of young men doesn't have the opportunity to form families, _they_ become the powder keg is correct. Having a powder keg in society definitely causes suffering.

Re: Young U.S. men having a lot less sex in the 21st century, study shows

#172

This is a widespread societal change that I think most people are completely unaware of. The majority of women are sleeping with the top 10% of men, sometimes only the top 3-5%, with the rest barely getting any at all. the sexual revolution was never about free love or sexual freedom, it was about womens rights to sleep with the few men they are all attracted to. The lower 80% of men instead saw their sexual freedom…

Sure man, if only things were as great as in the 50s, women just loved it back then when there was no "unrest". You give people freedom and choice and some people make bad decisions. Some women are like you described, while some aren't. Tons of women don't really enjoy hookups, not even with "alpha" males, but want a serious relationship. And some do love doing that. I do think most women have a pretty short "casual…

The problem is that small numbers of market participants can affect the market for the majority. A small number of fraudsters on Craigslist, for example, make everyone skeptical of it. And a small number of people plying the sexual marketplace can flood the market for what was previously a scarce resource, making people unwilling to do something as momentous as committing to spending one’s life with someone mainly in order to have sex.

Re: Young U.S. men having a lot less sex in the 21st century, study shows

#173
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I wouldn't be surprised to see a serious push for legalized polygamy in a few years. I mentioned the same thing to my wife, only half-joking. Many of her friends are single, professional women who don't want to date down. The problem is that all of the men they're interested in (millionaires in their 30s and 40s) get married quickly after they signal they're on the market. It seems to me there's presently an "ineffi…

The status quo doesn’t negatively impact educated women, it impacts educated women who refuse to date men of lower educational attainment.

I don't think it's just about education. It's multi-dimensional and more about overall status, which is a combination of innate factors like looks/intelligence/humor and things like education and job prestige/salary.

Re: Young U.S. men having a lot less sex in the 21st century, study shows

#174
post #22
post #12

They buried the lede here. > Sexual activity was largely unchanged among unmarried women, along with no notable decline among gay men, researchers reported. Basically sex is following the pattern of wealth. Men as a group aren't having less sex, instead there's a winner take all effect where a small number of men are having a lot of sex with a lot of women while a large number of men are having little to no sex. It'l…

> instead there's a winner take all effect where a small number of men are having a lot of sex with a lot of women If true, I wonder how much of that is due to self-selection by men who aren't having sex. Having once upon a time been lonely and bitter, I know that men often end up in positive feedback loops that strengthen their not having sexual partners - due to the attitudes they develop towards women.

I very much think this is the case — misogyny combined with low self-esteem is a huge red flag for women. Growing up, misogyny was much more acceptable than it is today; and I don’t think a lot of men understand what it’s like to be a woman so they don’t understand how widespread it still is.

Therapy helps; if you can boost your own self-esteem enough to have real vulnerability without soliciting sympathy it goes a long way to building better relationships. It also helps you see things from another perspective.

Re: Young U.S. men having a lot less sex in the 21st century, study shows

#175
There are two coaching perspectives that I think are useful for single men. We don't have many dating coaches in the coaching community I run, but I've been in long conversations with coaches outside that community whose job it is to help men date.

One perspective is that it's almost always faster to focus on being more interested rather than more interesting. That means focusing on status and alpha male activities is typically a loser in terms of strategy despite all the anecdotes you hear to the contrary. Whereas treating women like people, looking them in the eyes, listening, being curious, trying to find ways to relate--these can be very effective. There's a lot to unpack there, but maybe the easiest is just to give women credit that they know when they are being manipulated.

But human connection can be rare and a huge number of male daters are not approaching dating in a way that allows for that connection.

To do this authentically, you have to be crystal clear that there is a difference between "I'm laughing at her jokes because I hope that will make her sleep with me." and "I'm laughing at her jokes because she's funny."

This be more interested approach has an unfortunate counter narrative about getting friend zoned, as if that is a bad thing. You talked to a woman and ended up with a friend, what's so awful about that?

And on this, I like the perspective of one of our sales coaches. Her perspective is that sales is a lot more about sorting than it is about convincing.

If you approach dating as an exercise in convincing then you are basically implying that you can point at a woman and then rely on some set of male seduction skills that will convince her to sleep with you.

What if you gave up just that fantasy of being able to pick any person and make them like you. And instead treated dating as a sorting activity--who do you like that also likes you back?

An exercise anyone could do to see some of the wisdom above is to ask their female friends to show you the worst profiles and come-ons that they've received on Tinder. I think that will help you see that a lot of what is preventing men from finding matches has little to do with status and a lot to do with being weird and self-centered.

Re: Young U.S. men having a lot less sex in the 21st century, study shows

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trick is I'm not an incel. I'm the opposite. I've seen this with my own two eyes for years and am completely shocked by it.

It seems pretty clearly targeted at the insecurities of incels, what with your, 10% or perhaps 3-5%, comments - all based on your anecdotal experiences with your own two eyes.

Yes, I was going to comment something similar. "The majority of women" is clearly not the same as "the women you've personally witnessed hooking up with your friends at bars in NYC".

Re: Young U.S. men having a lot less sex in the 21st century, study shows

#177

This is a widespread societal change that I think most people are completely unaware of. The majority of women are sleeping with the top 10% of men, sometimes only the top 3-5%, with the rest barely getting any at all. the sexual revolution was never about free love or sexual freedom, it was about womens rights to sleep with the few men they are all attracted to. The lower 80% of men instead saw their sexual freedom…

The sexual revolution was about freedom and bodily autonomy: your existence is about more than being a sexual plaything. You can be a doctor, a professor, a factory worker, or a housewife. But the most important part is having the power to make that decision for yourself. > If I said the above out in the open I would lose my job Erm no, not quite. Maybe this part: > the sexual revolution was never about free love or…

To be devil's advocate, he never said it wasn't still the right move, just that perhaps the (subtextual) motivation was less than benevolent.

Re: Young U.S. men having a lot less sex in the 21st century, study shows

#178
post #114
post #12

They buried the lede here. > Sexual activity was largely unchanged among unmarried women, along with no notable decline among gay men, researchers reported. Basically sex is following the pattern of wealth. Men as a group aren't having less sex, instead there's a winner take all effect where a small number of men are having a lot of sex with a lot of women while a large number of men are having little to no sex. It'l…

I'm a high earner in tech like I imagine many people on the forum, and also like many people on the forum my life is super busy. My last relationship ended really badly took like two years to get over it and then I was suddenly really busy and I've kept being really busy as my titles have changed and my personal interest in starting my own business has increased etc etc and now we're in a pandemic. I'd argue that the…

> I don't even know where I'd put a significant other in my life

I think we're talking about non-commital encounters, not "relationships" like you're referring to. (Not that there's not a time element involved to nurture that part of one's life!)

Re: Young U.S. men having a lot less sex in the 21st century, study shows

#179
post #76
post #12

They buried the lede here. > Sexual activity was largely unchanged among unmarried women, along with no notable decline among gay men, researchers reported. Basically sex is following the pattern of wealth. Men as a group aren't having less sex, instead there's a winner take all effect where a small number of men are having a lot of sex with a lot of women while a large number of men are having little to no sex. It'l…

Why is it not the other way around? i.e. rich females getting a lot of males.

Ask some men you know.

Re: Young U.S. men having a lot less sex in the 21st century, study shows

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is exactly right. Apps like Tinder that normalized online "dating" (before the apps it was much less common among younger people) have allowed the "apex predator" men with good jobs/looks/personalities to have sex on demand with virtually unlimited numbers of women. This has also been made possible because a lot more women are now willing to be in non-exclusive sexual relationships at the beginning when…

It's not really a powder keg because we really don't suffer as a society if the excluded men don't get to have kids.

It seems possible to me that creatures that are denied their biological imperative can develop some very aggressive behaviours. If 80+% of men in society are angry, I'd be a bit scared.
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