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New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

theintercept.com

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Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#411
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions would be much more attractive if US were an open shop country. Instead, we’re closed shop, which means that, once a union is in place, you can’t choose to join a different union. This routinely leads to situations where corrupt unions abuse their own members. For an example of how this works in practice, look at the UAW’s conduct with UC’s grad students. Years ago, they negotiated salary caps for grad students…

I did not think all union contracts where closed shop in the USA. And this case why on earth where professional roles being represented by an Auto workers union.

In US law, closed shop refers to something different, which is illegal. It means that you have to be a member of the union to be hired in the first place at a certain employer/job site.

However, what is allowed is to require people who are hired to join the union, with the exception that if they do not want to join the union, they can opt to pay only "financial core" dues, to compensate the union for its work negotiating an agreement that the non-members supposedly benefit from too. The effect of this is that workers remain governed by collective bargaining, pay a lesser amount than members, and have no say in union leadership. They are also exempt from union discipline (ex fines for strikebreaking).

In some states, with so-called "right to work" laws, the employees who do not want to join the union pay nothing at all. This is actually not inherently a right of the states to make such laws, but an option they are delegated as part of the federal laws. After a recent SCOTUS ruling, all government employees can do this in any state.

In any case, what OP said is true re: our collective bargaining system is built around one union (whether or not everyone is required to pay dues) representing all workers, whose pay/benefits/other matters cannot vary from the union contract. Whether or not non-members must pay any dues

As to your point, the names for the old unions are largely historic vestiges. The "Big Labor" unions are massive conglomerates (just like the companies they rail against) that grow as big as they can. Ironically, the true hard-leftists like the IWW originally advocated for "One Big Union" as opposed to small, factional unions for each trade--but they would hardly be pleased with the highly-capitalist mammoth unions we have today.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did the closed shop restrictions come from, did it come from anti-union lobbying or some think tank somewhere? This smells completely like "the government is useless", then going in and defunding things that the government is responsible for.

Such rules come in at the state level and are usually pushed for by the large national unions to bully and push out local and regional small unions. Every major union from UAW to SEIU has been guilty of this.

This is not true. Unionization based on enterprise-level votes was put in place with NRLA in 1935. The NRLA and Taft-Hartley would have to be amended or replaced to change this. I have no idea if large unions have ever lobbied against replacing them at the Federal level, but there hasn’t (in recent history) been any serious push to do so that these unions would oppose.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " Poor performers get paid more, top performers get paid less. No thanks, I can negotiate for myself. " The two retorts to this are: 1) it's selfish arguing. "Fuck you got mine" style, dismisses what happens to everyone else as long as you're OK. Which may be fine for you, but why should the rest of us agree that you being wealthier is the thing we all want? 2) You negotiating against the resources of a multi-milli…

>2) You negotiating against the resources of a multi-million dollar company who can hire any legal or negotiating team of experts against you? Can you, really? I take it you've never actually gotten an offer with a large tech company. You're negotiating against some HR rep or hiring manager not some blacks ops negotiating team. Teams of lawyers cost a lot of money and paying them $40k to save $20k is stupid for a com…

> You're negotiating against some HR rep or hiring manager not some blacks ops negotiating team.

"some HR rep", you say dismissively. Are they not an extremely competent professional negotiator? They can't out-negotiate a (typically young, inexperienced, antisocial) programmer? Perhaps they should be fired and replaced with someone who can? Someone who will quietly make a no-poach agreement with competing companies, say.

> "Teams of lawyers cost a lot of money and paying them $40k to save $20k is stupid for a company."

The teams of lawyers have already been there, drafting the employment contracts in favour of the company, rewriting the hiring policies in favour of the company, adding the terms and conditions which say "anything you do on your own time on your own equipment belongs to us" and "you can't work anywhere we think is a competitor for years after leaving us" and so on.

> "Unions are not necessary."

Unions came as a response to employer abuse. "many would say" they are very necessary. Either way it's a step from "not necessary" to "they shouldn't be allowed".

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#414
post #333
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s usually a symptom more than the cause. Unions are formed in environments where people feel it’d bad enough to pay the price. The same way if we looked at jobs hiring bodyguards, most would look pretty dangerous, but we wouldn’t blame the bodyguards.

Perhaps, but even so I still wouldn't want to work at a place that requires bodyguards, even if bodyguards are not the cause of the danger. Without getting into the details of cause and effect, look at it from the perspective of the current employees. Currently it's a nice place to work. Contrasting with previous experiences with unions where they've been terrible experiences to work at. Why would I want this kind of…

> Currently it’s a nice place to work

If they’re seriously discussing unionizing, perhaps that assumption is to be revisited ?

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#415

>>Section 1: The policy of the United States is to be carried out "by encouraging the practice and procedure of collective bargaining and by protecting the exercise by workers of full freedom of association, self-organization, and designation of representatives of their own choosing, for the purpose of negotiating the terms and conditions of their employment..." Section 7: "Employees shall have the right to self-orga…

The NLRB recently reversed itself and said companies can prevent their workers from organizing on the work email system. Expect the same would apply to FB Workplace. https://www.reuters.com/article/labor-disclosure/workers-can...

That decision only applies when the company has a policy of no non-work conversations at all. If you allow planning a volleyball game on the weekend you can't turn around and then say no discussion of working conditions.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll never forget the union at a convention center that forced vendors to pay them to move anything from their own car they couldn't carry. Nothing but extortionist bullies squeezing every cent of protection money they could out of the people there who actually make things and add value to the world. In contrast, these union employees were nothing but parasites. They did nothing the vendors couldn't do themselves, wh…

I hear this sort of thing a lot, but far more often than not it is from the point of view of "someone I know", "a mate a ", or "this thing I read on The Register". I'm sure it really happens, just not nearly as often as people seem to think and/or suggest. I've actually experienced it twice, but neither case had anything to do with unions. One was officially a Health and safety matter (if you'd not been on the manual…

>someone I know

For reference I volunteered at a convention there, which is how I know all this.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#417
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " Poor performers get paid more, top performers get paid less. No thanks, I can negotiate for myself. " The two retorts to this are: 1) it's selfish arguing. "Fuck you got mine" style, dismisses what happens to everyone else as long as you're OK. Which may be fine for you, but why should the rest of us agree that you being wealthier is the thing we all want? 2) You negotiating against the resources of a multi-milli…

>dismisses what happens to everyone else as long as you're OK Not really, because it's not like tech low performers are in poverty. Tech salaries bottom out at $60-70k in most places in the US. $60k is far from poverty and far from nothing. >Which may be fine for you, but why should the rest of us agree that you being wealthier is the thing we all want? Well, the collective in this case has already agreed that I shou…

> "I willingly give up those rights. No, really."

And by so doing, you give them up for others too.

> "the collective in this case has already agreed that I should be paid the market rate that I successfully negotiate."

Is there any reason to think you + (more resources, more experienced people, more leverage) could NOT negotiate a higher rate? That you are the best imaginable negotiator, despite having no specific training and only practising once every few years?

> "I don't really care, because I know they won't do that as long as I continue to deliver value"

/r/LeopardsAteMyFace will be there for when the company decides it's in their interest to eat your face.

> "In reality, it's less "David vs Goliath" and more like "Goliath vs Goliath vs Goliath"."

It's more like (Goliath + Goliath + Goliath) vs you; remember when "the Department of Justice alleged that Adobe, Apple, Google, Intel, Intuit, and Pixar had violated Section 1 of the Sherman Act by entering into a series of bilateral "No Cold Call" Agreements to prevent the recruitment of their employees [...] The alleged intent of this conspiracy was "to reduce employee compensation and mobility through eliminating competition for skilled labor.""? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

> "I pushed the issue as high as it would go in the chain of command and left when it was clear they refused to do anything."

I refer back to your claimed excellent negotiating skills, and suggest that a better negotiator - or a large percentage of the employees "united" in some way - would have much more chance at effecting change, and that this is evidence that individual action is weaker than you wish/imply it is. To be clear, when the employer had the power to ignore you until you quit, leaving the injustice to be perpetuated against the customers, you didn't win.

> But you seem to gloss over the inconvenient facts about police and teachers unions.

I think this is an irrelevant diversion; that the courts sometimes lets guilty people go free is not a reason to ditch the legal system, that unions have people who do bad things in them, or that some unions are bad, is not a reason to reject the principal of uniting to make larger negotiating blocks to balance power dynamics which are almost entirely on the employer's side, with tactics like dividing and conquering - setting all employees on individual permanent competition with other employees.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not think all union contracts where closed shop in the USA. And this case why on earth where professional roles being represented by an Auto workers union.

In US law, closed shop refers to something different, which is illegal. It means that you have to be a member of the union to be hired in the first place at a certain employer/job site. However, what is allowed is to require people who are hired to join the union, with the exception that if they do not want to join the union, they can opt to pay only "financial core" dues, to compensate the union for its work negotia…

that "lesser amount" is often close to 95% of the union amount, though, so you still end up financially supporting an entity that you disagree with, and not being able to use the full resources they provide.

If you are philosophically opposed to unions, you shouldn't have to pay them at all.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#419
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unions will slow us down, and we'll become more bureaucratic Anyone who's actually had to deal with a union can agree with this point. At our company, a number of job functions are union-only work, meaning it is a violation of the union contract for any non-union employee to perform that work. In principle, you might think that makes sense, until you need to get something very simple done - that you are willing to…

Well, sorry to be blunt but that's fucking stupid. Contrast that with my experience with Unions in Sweden; and that is that they basically don't exist except to ensure that workers rights are not infringed. So they'll be involved in a termination, or help negotiate overtime pay. There is no such thing as a "union job", it's just having what's referred to as a "collective agreement".

I think that unions in Sweden would be better classified as Professional Societies. There are unions for different professions, and they help with training, education, discounts etc. A lot of people in UK and America unions are associated with striking miners etc.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#420
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no "closed shops" any more in the UK[1]. Any member can leave a union any time they like. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_Act_1990

Even voicing the opinion that Right to Work is a good idea causes the pro-union folks to act like they're going rabid, acting like you're trying to tear down their entire world. Passing a Right to Work law is, in the eyes of many, a flat out attack on unions and an act of union busting.

Rendering the contracts that unions sign with employers unenforceable is pretty much the definition of union busting.

It's explicitly about preventing two consenting parties (union + employer) from freely entering into a contract.

Oddly enough there are some (libertarians) people who consider the right to enter into a contract freely pretty sacrosanct, but I've yet to hear one complain about this law.

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