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Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

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Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#581

Post by hopfscotch2 »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #510
jakelazaroff wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly don't understand the problem here. Can you tell me what it is that makes these people dangerous and scary, but the similarly armed protestors who showed up at government buildings a month ago — or, frankly, the police — fine?

What makes these people dangerous and scary is that they're carrying dangerous and scary weapons. The flak jackets and face masks aren't making it any less scary either. Personally, I'm not afraid of the police, of protesters, of armed militias, etc. I'm afraid of people with guns. Why does anyone carry a gun, unless they intend to use it, once some set of conditions obtain? I don't want to be around people like that…

"Why does anyone carry a gun, unless they intend to use it"

Oh you mean like police officers?

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#582

Post by 0x262d »

refurb wrote: post #226
0x262d wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, globalization on neoliberal terms has continued to hollow out living standards in advanced countries while turning neocolonial countries into large sweatshops. the life expectancy in the US has fallen for 2 or 3 years in a row now largely as a downstream result of this. that is my understanding of one major concern from that.

Globalization has lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty in China.

China industrialized on the basis of incredibly terrible working conditions (ie high profitability via low wages) that have only recently been improving. And as they've improved, globalization has shifted manufacturing to other countries who have worse working conditions again. "Lifted out of poverty" sounds nice but tends to mostly mean that people who were formerly peasants have instead worked in sweatshops and horrible factories for decades or centuries. It's easy to view that as all well and good if you are happily working in the global labor aristocracy, but it's not actually fair.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#583

Post by hopfscotch2 »

devalgo wrote: post #561
conroy wrote: post #84

A friend lives in Seattle and texted me today about his visit last night: > I was there last night and it's such a cool pseudo utopian place > The media coverage of it is WILD > People on the internet are convinced it's protected by armed guards and people are dying of hunger and instead its...like a music festival campground > There are speakers, musicians, art walls. I took a group pic for a bunch of black guys las…

Yeah unaccountable armed guards blocking residents from entering and a warlord that assaults journalists is so cool man, what a utopia!

"unaccountable armed guards"

Just like the police you love so much? What's the problem again?

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#584

Post by ogre_codes »

TheGrim999 wrote: post #566
ogre_codes wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> police would like us to believe that without them, society turns to chaos The police benefit from chaos during these protests, I'm sure the temptation to foster chaos and destruction is quite high for them right now. It puts the protesters in a bad light and reinforces the idea that police are needed. There are multiple cases where police have been observed contributing to the chaos or just idling around while it h…

You think the protestors also don't benefit from chaos? Neither side is innocent here. Any time the police are pushed to the point where they use force on the protestors, mass media is then awash with out of context clips of the event, claiming police brutality, drumming up more support for the protestors and their cause. The more chaos, the better it is for the protester's message. There's lots of peaceful protests…

> You think the protestors also don't benefit from chaos? Neither side is innocent here.

I don't see how your point is relevant here.

Protestors aren't paid with tax dollars.

Cops are getting paid massive amounts of overtime to prevent looting and damage during this crisis and instead they are contributing to it.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#585

Post by noobaccount »

TheGrim999 wrote: post #566
ogre_codes wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> police would like us to believe that without them, society turns to chaos The police benefit from chaos during these protests, I'm sure the temptation to foster chaos and destruction is quite high for them right now. It puts the protesters in a bad light and reinforces the idea that police are needed. There are multiple cases where police have been observed contributing to the chaos or just idling around while it h…

You think the protestors also don't benefit from chaos? Neither side is innocent here. Any time the police are pushed to the point where they use force on the protestors, mass media is then awash with out of context clips of the event, claiming police brutality, drumming up more support for the protestors and their cause. The more chaos, the better it is for the protester's message. There's lots of peaceful protests…

Nah people who get hurt don’t benefit. One side is organized like a military with command stations and ranks like captain and lieutenant, while the other is just people marching because they feel like it.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#586

Post by growlist »

Does anyone think this would not have been crushed without mercy if the protestors were 'white supremacists'? Serious question.

The irony is that if these AZs were permitted it could give said segregationists exactly what they had been after for decades.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#587

Post by cwkoss »

pjc50 wrote: post #405
drevil-v2 wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seattle police chief said on TV [1] that "Rapes, robberies and all sorts of violent acts have been occurring in the area and we're not able to get to [them]." Doesn’t sound very utopian [1] https://twitter.com/mrandyngo/status/1271291958296604675?s=2...

She said that, but is it actually true? Besides, one of the long list of complaints is that police are often useless or worse at dealing with rapes; Minneapolis PD had a massive backlog of untested rape kits. (edit: correctly gendered the police chief, hadn't bothered looking at the tweet)

In the past week SPD has lied about:

- "Incendiary devices" being thrown at officers: it was a candle - as can be seen by the sticker visible in SPD's own tweets

- Businesses being 'extorted': appears SPD leadership got a false report of this from a local alt-right personality and spread it in their press briefing.

- People checking IDs for entry: streamers have been trying to find anyone on the ground who can substantiate this claim and have been unable to. A small handful of people have been kicked out by being swarmed by a crowd and told to leave (and some more colorful language) without violence. These few instances have all either been counter-protestors or people trying to be senselessly destructive, as far as I've seen.

I'm skeptical of these most recent claims

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#588

Post by 0x262d »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #190
0x262d wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, globalization on neoliberal terms has continued to hollow out living standards in advanced countries while turning neocolonial countries into large sweatshops. the life expectancy in the US has fallen for 2 or 3 years in a row now largely as a downstream result of this. that is my understanding of one major concern from that.

What does “neoliberal” mean in this context?

Liberalism was originally the abolition of feudal restrictions on free trade and wage labor. Neoliberalism is the removal of various newer restrictions on that, including: social-democratic laws that protect workers and raise the standard of living, and protective trade laws that protect countries' local industries (large industry in poor manufacturing countries, for instance, or small farmers like in Mexico, who have been wiped out by US agriculture).

China and the US have recently taken an anti-neoliberal turn, in fact the neoliberal era is beginning to end. Both Trump and Jinping have been pretty protectionist.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#589

Post by jakelazaroff »

dgellow wrote: post #491
jakelazaroff wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you see stuff like that at music festivals as well, in the form of police. So I'm asking why this is scary or notable but that is not.

Just my personal opinion: I’m from a european country, so not a US perspective. Anyone with a weapon is scary as hell. I avoid to come close to any military or police people if they seem to be armed. Also I don’t know how are festivals in the US, but I’ve never seen armed cops at one, and would be really uncomfortable if there would be some.

> Anyone with a weapon is scary as hell. I avoid to come close to any military or police people if they seem to be armed.

I agree. But most people who have been claiming that "CHAZ is being ruled by warlords" (or some similar permutation) are the same people who were totally fine with armed anti–lockdown protests at government buildings a month or so ago. They're the same people who have sided with the police as they attack peaceful protestors in the name of "law and order".

My presumption was that the OP basically shares these views. So I'm simply trying to understand why this one guise of "person with a weapon" is especially scary but others are not.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#590

Post by orthecreedence »

commandlinefan wrote: post #511
kenneth wrote: post #486

I am rather amused that the same group is simultaneously calling for the tearing down of secessionist monuments and statues, while promoting a secession of their own. The cognitive dissonance is real.

As a die-hard libertarian, I'm amused by a group that's been telling libertarians for decades that we should move to Somalia if we like living without government so much and then creating a purely libertarian social experiment the first chance they get. If this doesn't dissolve into complete chaos it's a vindication of libertarian principles.

I think you're missing the economic aspect. People don't tell libertarian socialists/communists to move to Somalia. Only libertarian capitalists get told that, and it's because of the perceived notion that companies seeking profit without the regulation of a strongish government resort to some pretty awful things. And there is some great historical precedence for this.
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