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Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

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Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#561

Post by devalgo »

conroy wrote: post #84

A friend lives in Seattle and texted me today about his visit last night: > I was there last night and it's such a cool pseudo utopian place > The media coverage of it is WILD > People on the internet are convinced it's protected by armed guards and people are dying of hunger and instead its...like a music festival campground > There are speakers, musicians, art walls. I took a group pic for a bunch of black guys las…

Yeah unaccountable armed guards blocking residents from entering and a warlord that assaults journalists is so cool man, what a utopia!

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#562

Post by [deleted] »

thu2111 wrote: post #348
gabesk wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also about that far away and walked through there last night. It felt more like a summer street fair festival. I also took a few pictures. https://photos.app.goo.gl/UN8RpwWS5TYAY5Nn7

But then there's also this: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaQyClgU4AEJnWf?format=jpg&name=... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaQyCmMUEAEn_1o?format=jpg&name=... I've not before seen a summer street festival where armed militias wearing bulletproof vests patrol the streets.

[deleted]

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#563

Post by Kerrick »

noelsusman wrote: post #396
hedora wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Occupy Wall Street had a tangible goal. Break up big banks, and forgive predatory loans. Even with Obama in office, we ended up with even bigger banks and a spiraling debt crisis.

I don't remember that being a consistent, clearly articulated goal. That's also orders of magnitude more difficult to accomplish than shifting some city budgets around.

Via http://web.archive.org/web/20120621221550/http://occupycg.or...

- Reinstate Glass-Steagall to separate commercial and investment banking

- Require all votes to be made on paper to prevent malicious manipulation

- Overturn Citizens United v. FEC to prevent corporations from buying politicians and elections

- Implement the "Warren Buffet Rule" and restore historical tax rates for the wealthiest 1% of Americans

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#564

Post by undersuit »

bowmessage wrote: post #556
undersuit wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate the laughter at the vegetable garden. Oh lets mock people for planting what could be food where it used to a a useless piece of turf. We shouldn't be mocking them we should be following their example across the country.

It wasn't a useless piece of turf, it was a park that the residents of the neighborhood, myself included, used to be able to enjoy. Now we can't, because hundreds are camping on the area. I am all for their cause, but I feel like the methodology of 'camping in a park' is not the right way to enact civic change at a policy level.

So if the whataboutism of sleeping in the park were removed we could have a discussion about sharing the use of the park?

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#565

Post by michaelmrose »

commandlinefan wrote: post #518
hedora wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Occupy Wall Street had a tangible goal. Break up big banks, and forgive predatory loans. Even with Obama in office, we ended up with even bigger banks and a spiraling debt crisis.

> we ended up with even bigger banks That's my prediction: they'll succeed in diverting tax funds from the police into social programs... and then three months later, the police budgets will be back where they started, but we'll be paying for the additional social programs, too. In a year, our taxes will go up, again, to pay for all of this.

Any group of people presently acting in a leadership role can be removed tomorrow.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#566

Post by TheGrim999 »

ogre_codes wrote: post #545
mcv wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't it the police who abandoned this area in the first place? The impression I'm getting from this and other events from the past weeks is that the police would like us to believe that without them, society turns to chaos, but in practice, US police turns out to be a major source of chaos, and without them things often turn much more peaceful. I'm not saying there should be no police at all, but that police should…

> police would like us to believe that without them, society turns to chaos The police benefit from chaos during these protests, I'm sure the temptation to foster chaos and destruction is quite high for them right now. It puts the protesters in a bad light and reinforces the idea that police are needed. There are multiple cases where police have been observed contributing to the chaos or just idling around while it h…

You think the protestors also don't benefit from chaos? Neither side is innocent here.

Any time the police are pushed to the point where they use force on the protestors, mass media is then awash with out of context clips of the event, claiming police brutality, drumming up more support for the protestors and their cause. The more chaos, the better it is for the protester's message.

There's lots of peaceful protests every year that don't end in the police using force. In fact, the vast majority of them, before this. These protestors benefit politically if the police use force. So what's the difference here, why do these "protests" result in use of force? It's blatantly obvious to me ..

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#567

Post by craftinator »

cameron_b wrote: post #534
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine its because all their other training, all their range practice, is to shoot at center of mass three times in a burst. Hard to change in the heat of the riot.

I would say this is spot on from what I've heard. When emotions are this high ( look at the cops faces when they are exposed ) there's nothing but muscle memory. I took a class on active shooter scenarios where they focused on that "be careful how you train" aspect with the illustration that a police officer ( no idea where ) once responded to a call where an armed man pointed a pistol right at the cop close range. T…

> I would say this is spot on from what I've heard. When emotions are this high ( look at the cops faces when they are exposed ) there's nothing but muscle memory.

I think that's an understandable point of view but, frankly, one of the key points of training (military experience only, but I know police do similar) is to force people to learn how to think and act correctly in high stress situations. If you're in direct engagement with someone trying to hurt you, you do let the training take over. But if you're just scared, or nervous, or some kind of emotional, the point of high stress training is to teach how to remain calm, controlled, and analyze the situation. Civilians may not get that, having not gone through it, but that really is the point.

> I took a class on active shooter scenarios where they focused on that "be careful how you train" aspect with the illustration that a police officer ( no idea where ) once responded to a call where an armed man pointed a pistol right at the cop close range. The cop quickly disarmed the man, but then returned the firearm to the man, whereupon the man shot him dead.

To me, this screams of a notional anecdote to reinforce the idea to train properly, not of an actual occurrence.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#568

Post by DenisM »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #392
thu2111 wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then there's also this: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaQyClgU4AEJnWf?format=jpg&name=... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaQyCmMUEAEn_1o?format=jpg&name=... I've not before seen a summer street festival where armed militias wearing bulletproof vests patrol the streets.

I truly don't understand the problem here. Can you tell me what it is that makes these people dangerous and scary, but the similarly armed protestors who showed up at government buildings a month ago — or, frankly, the police — fine?

The police follow orders from their chain of command that goes up to an elected official. You can petition the elected official, occupy their building, grill them in the media, and vote them out if you convince the other citizens. For example the knee-to-the-neck move was a part of the "orders" in that it was part of standard procedure and it is now being revised and removed. Similarly the tear gas was part of the procedure and has now been suspended by the order of the mayor. This can only be done because of the chain of command.

The people with masks and weapons on the street report to no-one we know, it's either a loose anarchic group or some sort or they report to a warlord. Can you petition the warlord? Occupy their office? Vote them out? This is a regression to the medieval model of governance.

It's all fun and games when no one really disagrees about anything important, but things change for the worse when disagreements start happening. This is how communes fall - either they fail to disagree constructively or they get subjugated by a dictator who forces an agreement.

This is why we tolerate the police for a few hundred years now - on occasion they cause violence that's predictable and can be influenced. The alternative is the violence we cannot influence and that spiral out of control when the going gets tough.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#569

Post by motohagiography »

49531 wrote: post #530
motohagiography wrote: post #402

I defer to moderators whether this crosses the line on political content. It's interesting how this is organized by largely college educated people, many of whom are not PoC, and I think the federal response to this will be tolerance because these people are ultimately vying for institutional power, and feds realize they will all be working for one another in 10 years. It's less about right/left than how I'd posit if…

> It's interesting how this is organized by largely college educated people, many of whom are not PoC Do you have a source for this? I haven't been able to find a list of people involved in organizing this.

Not a source I'd be willing to provide, especially given such lists are precisely what political organizers avoid sharing. However, as an exercise, you can see the make up of the civil society organizations and businesses who provide funding and support for social causes, and neither of these are made up of the uneducated or working poor.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#570

Post by TheGrim999 »

ogre_codes wrote: post #427
drevil-v2 wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seattle police chief said on TV [1] that "Rapes, robberies and all sorts of violent acts have been occurring in the area and we're not able to get to [them]." Doesn’t sound very utopian [1] https://twitter.com/mrandyngo/status/1271291958296604675?s=2...

> Seattle police chief said on TV And the media didn't post a non-biased account of what's going on? It's become incredibly difficult to take what the PD says at face value anymore.

Whether or not the PD is biased is one thing, but it's kind of a joke if you're honestly suggesting that Seattle news media isn't also extremely biased and partisan.
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