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Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

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Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#481

Post by mcv »

sterlind wrote: post #344
chrissnell wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This jibes with what I'm seeing. Fox News is trying their damndest to get people worked up and generate support for intervention. Amongst my friends (many right-leaning), there is a strong consensus that this is a trap laid for Trump and that the best thing to do for everybody involved is to ignore it and leave it to the Seattle government. If it really is as chill as folks say here, it settles down and is out of the…

If CHAZ is successful, it'll be a template for other protests.. protestors will realize they can push for "autonomous zones" and it can actually happen.. if protests are battles, now land can be won, at least for a while. I think that has conservatives (and probably neoliberals) pretty freaked, so they want to hit it like Waco, to snuff out the idea.

CHAZ seems to be a response to a pretty extreme situation. If you don't want these sort of autonomous zones, just don't create those sort of extreme situations. And I think that's ultimately what everybody wants: for police not to use unreasonable violence to crack down on peaceful protesters and harmless citizens.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#482

Post by seanmcdirmid »

muricula wrote: post #219
JPKab wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"they were so proud of what was built" Curious, since I can't trust news media to not sensationalize this: What has been built, according to your friend? Have they set up infrastructure of some sort for housing people? Kitchens, latrines, etc?

The city is maintaining a row of porta potties, and someone rented one privately a block or so away. Some businesses are opening their restrooms too. As of this evening I saw at least three soup kitchens, two well equipped aid stations, a community garden plot with zucchinis and other food, a row of freshly planted trees, planters of decorative plants which double as barricades, and lots of barricades. Half of that w…

Pretty sure the community garden plot was there before the protests.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#483

Post by carapace »

motohagiography wrote: post #402

I defer to moderators whether this crosses the line on political content. It's interesting how this is organized by largely college educated people, many of whom are not PoC, and I think the federal response to this will be tolerance because these people are ultimately vying for institutional power, and feds realize they will all be working for one another in 10 years. It's less about right/left than how I'd posit if…

Capitol Hill is the gay neighborhood of Seattle. Could you imagine the reaction if the feds raided the Castro district in San Francisco for hosting a mostly-peaceful TAZ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#484

Post by Izkata »

preinheimer wrote: post #461
jiscariot wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard this explained by a comparison. If you have a block with four burger joints and one taco joint, you'd expect the taco joint to be the most popular. Not saying this is correct, but I thought it was an interesting analogy.

So one might expect the taco joint to be the most popular. But explicitly the parent is saying that the taco joint is more popular than all of the burger joints _combined_. Which is not what I would have guessed.

Would you have guessed it if there were equal numbers of burger-lovers and taco-lovers?

'Cause despite what it looks like online, the US is about equally split between liberal and conservative.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#485

Post by oarsinsync »

downerending wrote: post #213
conroy wrote: post #84

A friend lives in Seattle and texted me today about his visit last night: > I was there last night and it's such a cool pseudo utopian place > The media coverage of it is WILD > People on the internet are convinced it's protected by armed guards and people are dying of hunger and instead its...like a music festival campground > There are speakers, musicians, art walls. I took a group pic for a bunch of black guys las…

Not sure anyone is "convinced", but yes, there are stories of uncertain believeability suggesting that there are people with guns at the "border" demanding ID to enter. Sounds dubious. Also, that the Antifas are asking for protection money from businesses within the zone. Again, dubious. But, if either of those things are happening, I'm pretty okay with putting an end to them, by whatever means necessary. Threatening…

> I'm pretty okay with putting an end to them, by whatever means necessary

I don't know you, nor do I know your views on capital punishment. That said, I suspect you don't intend to promote that these crimes justify summary executions.

Consider the realistic logical endpoint of the statement. It ultimately means that it's acceptable for the police to storm the space, guns blazing, shooting (and reasonable probability of killing) anyone who doesn't immediately surrender.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#486

Post by kenneth »

I am rather amused that the same group is simultaneously calling for the tearing down of secessionist monuments and statues, while promoting a secession of their own. The cognitive dissonance is real.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#487

Post by superdisk »

danharaj wrote: post #389
jmpman wrote: post #378

I’ve always wondered, if a community like this were able to completely leave the US, and didn’t have to pay for the military, or the police, would they be able to fund their own demands for free healthcare, free college, etc? I’m going to guess that overall, the occupants are below the average income level of Seattle, but would they be able to afford the lifestyle they’re requesting?

Is "lifestyle" the most appropriate word you could choose for "access to healthcare and education"?

How is that not appropriate?

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#488

Post by chimeracoder »

kenneth wrote: post #486

I am rather amused that the same group is simultaneously calling for the tearing down of secessionist monuments and statues, while promoting a secession of their own. The cognitive dissonance is real.

> I am rather amused that the same group is simultaneously calling for the tearing down of secessionist monuments and statues, while promoting a secession of their own. The cognitive dissonance is real.

From the webpage:

> Fundamentally, CHAZ is an occupation of Capitol Hill, not an official declaration of independence.

They are fairly clear that their ultimate goal is neither secession or independence. The area was abandoned by the police in a political move, and CHAZ is occupying it as a statement of how they would like to see the city as a whole run instead.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#489

Post by djsumdog »

ogre_codes wrote: post #459
djsumdog wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what the end game is. The police is not going to disband. People asking for that don't understand how States work. You cannot have a State without a monopoly on violence. America disbanded police once, in 2003, in a city called Baghdad. That turned out wonderfully. I suspect they'll all just get bored at some point.

> I wonder what the end game is I don't know, it's like a massive catch-22. People are sick of police abuses, but society needs police to some extent. I agree with much of what the protests are about, but struggle with their solutions.

But if you look at the numbers, police abuse has gone down. There were 1007 shootings by US police last year. Yes, that's still terribly high, even per-capita, for a high income/developed nation, but police departments have been embracing body cameras.

If you watch YouTube channels like Donut Operator where people do police breakdowns, a lot of people .. really do deserve to get shot. Body cameras also make it way easier to get rid of police who are psychos who shouldn't be on the force, and can help push back against police unions.

Body cams are great solutions, and we're already seeing departments firing people who turned them off in bad faith (mostly due to these protests). Maybe more money should be diverted to training and wages, and less to equipment and vehicles?

I think there were already a lot of positive changes, and this whole set of protests may give us more. By disbanding or defunding the police is an absolutely crazy idea, that I think the vast majority of Americans do not support.

I get it. I hated cops in my 20s. I hated speeding tickets and saw friends get busted for pot and minorities get pulled over a lot. But a lot of that changed via policy. Pot is less of an issue in many places, and legal in several states. As far as people calling the cops on people (one of my good friends, black, had a neighbour call the cops on him, while he was jogging in his own neighbourhood, where he was a home owner)... yes that's racism, but not from the police; from a person in his community. That said, I have seen neighbours pulled over and searched in Cincinnati and it seemed like it was totally because they were black in a cheap car. shrug

I no longer hate cops. I've seen some do really amazing things for people they didn't need to. Yes there are probably 8%~10% that are psychos and I think most officers wish they could get rid of those people from their ranks too, but hating police just for hating police is childish. All these people calling for disbanding feel like they're just children.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#490

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

cma wrote: post #284
colllectorof wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The media coverage of it is WILD > People on the internet are convinced it's protected by armed guards and people are dying of hunger and instead its...like a music festival campground This seems like propaganda in its own right. With the exception of Fox and Sky, most news coverage I see on YouTube is neutral or positive: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=capitol+hill+au... Most mainstream coverage of p…

Fox is by far the most popular news channel in the US and pretty close to bigger than the rest combined.

It's an entertainment channel with two hours of daily news.
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