Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report • Hacker News Board

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#301

Post by newacct583 » Fri, Jun 12, 2020, 1:52 PM UTC

JamesBarney wrote: post #286

newacct583 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think trading innocent people's lives to prevent criminal exploits is an acceptable strategy? I mean, there weren't any criminals here at all, but let's pretend they were dealing out of the apartment, as the reporting has suggested was the impetus. How many escaped drug dealers are worth one Breonna Taylor?

At some ratio yes. Otherwise we shouldn't enforce any laws, and I don't think a state without any laws enforced is a viable one. How many escaped drug dealers are worth one Breonna Taylor, depends completely on how violet the drug dealer is. Non-violent drug dealers, there isn't a number. But as the drug dealer gets more violent it requires fewer.

> depends completely on how violet the drug dealer is

Exactly. But you're still evading by hiding behind a TV Crime Drama trope. How many dealers are "violent"? Have you researched that? While there is violence in the drug trade, as there pretty much has to be in any black market, there is almost none at the level of individual sales. Needless to say it's not a good business model to go around killing people in front of your customers.

I mean, the evidence in question (that got this woman killed!) is that a known dealer apparently walked out of the apartment. With a FedEx box. Do we really want to be shooting people for carrying boxes?

The idea of street dealers being dangerous is largely a fiction invented by society. And we're killing innocent people to perpetuate it.

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#302

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Jun 12, 2020, 1:58 PM UTC

newacct583 wrote: post #301

JamesBarney wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some ratio yes. Otherwise we shouldn't enforce any laws, and I don't think a state without any laws enforced is a viable one. How many escaped drug dealers are worth one Breonna Taylor, depends completely on how violet the drug dealer is. Non-violent drug dealers, there isn't a number. But as the drug dealer gets more violent it requires fewer.

> depends completely on how violet the drug dealer is Exactly. But you're still evading by hiding behind a TV Crime Drama trope. How many dealers are "violent"? Have you researched that? While there is violence in the drug trade, as there pretty much has to be in any black market, there is almost none at the level of individual sales. Needless to say it's not a good business model to go around killing people in front…

It was true 20 years ago, when we formed our cultural impressions perhaps. Then the cocaine market was flooded with tons of cheap stuff (by the CIA). After that, the money to be made was so low that nobody was killing anybody over $100.

There's books written about this (Outliers?)

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#303

Post by JamesBarney » Fri, Jun 12, 2020, 2:14 PM UTC

newacct583 wrote: post #301

JamesBarney wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some ratio yes. Otherwise we shouldn't enforce any laws, and I don't think a state without any laws enforced is a viable one. How many escaped drug dealers are worth one Breonna Taylor, depends completely on how violet the drug dealer is. Non-violent drug dealers, there isn't a number. But as the drug dealer gets more violent it requires fewer.

> depends completely on how violet the drug dealer is Exactly. But you're still evading by hiding behind a TV Crime Drama trope. How many dealers are "violent"? Have you researched that? While there is violence in the drug trade, as there pretty much has to be in any black market, there is almost none at the level of individual sales. Needless to say it's not a good business model to go around killing people in front…

Back of the envelope calculation

I would imagine dealers are 0.1-1% of the population (say .3%) and the FBI says roughly 13% of homicides are gang related which is probably a rough proxy for the number of drug dealer related homicides.

This would put dealers as having a homicide rate approximately 40x the base rate. This seems right to me.

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#304

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Jun 12, 2020, 2:18 PM UTC

JamesBarney wrote: post #303

newacct583 wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> depends completely on how violet the drug dealer is Exactly. But you're still evading by hiding behind a TV Crime Drama trope. How many dealers are "violent"? Have you researched that? While there is violence in the drug trade, as there pretty much has to be in any black market, there is almost none at the level of individual sales. Needless to say it's not a good business model to go around killing people in front…

Back of the envelope calculation I would imagine dealers are 0.1-1% of the population (say .3%) and the FBI says roughly 13% of homicides are gang related which is probably a rough proxy for the number of drug dealer related homicides. This would put dealers as having a homicide rate approximately 40x the base rate. This seems right to me.

I wonder if 'gang related' is a conflation with 'poor'.

To be fair, have to measure folks in the same socioeconomic class and geography but not in gangs and compare?

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#305

Post by ncallaway » Fri, Jun 12, 2020, 2:29 PM UTC

JamesBarney wrote: post #289

ncallaway wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm arguing that serving a no knock warrant, in the middle of the night, in plain clothes, without announcing that you are police, is an inherently wanton act. If all no knock warrants are conducted that way, then I would indeed say that they are all wanton acts. I don't care if they were following orders, or had permission from the state. Crime is still crime, and getting your boss to tell you to commit a crime is s…

The whole point of a no knock warrant, being plain clothes, not announcing (disputed), and serving in the middle of the night is to not let the suspected perpetrator know the cops are serving him a warrant. Each of these decisions trades some risk of death and injury for an increased likelihood that the police officers will find drugs. I don't think this is a good trade-off, I don't think any amount of drugs you can…

"substantial and unjustifiable risk that the result will occur or that the circumstance exists"

I'd argue that it's not likely also, but I would say it is substantial, which is sufficient under the law.

I understand the reasoning provided. I think it wantonly risks death for unjustifiable reasons. They can provide their justifications, but to me (were I sitting on a jury) I would think an objective reasonable person would not agree with them.

It sounds like we're mostly in agreement on their actions creating a circumstance where the death could occur. I think at this point maybe the only difference between us is whether that risk is "justifiable" as described in the statute.

I think it is not and (again, given the specific facts I proposed which would have to be proven at trial) I would find them guilty of manslaughter.

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#306

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 12, 2020, 2:42 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #304

JamesBarney wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back of the envelope calculation I would imagine dealers are 0.1-1% of the population (say .3%) and the FBI says roughly 13% of homicides are gang related which is probably a rough proxy for the number of drug dealer related homicides. This would put dealers as having a homicide rate approximately 40x the base rate. This seems right to me.

I wonder if 'gang related' is a conflation with 'poor'. To be fair, have to measure folks in the same socioeconomic class and geography but not in gangs and compare?

[deleted]

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#307

Post by JamesBarney » Fri, Jun 12, 2020, 2:45 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #304

JamesBarney wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back of the envelope calculation I would imagine dealers are 0.1-1% of the population (say .3%) and the FBI says roughly 13% of homicides are gang related which is probably a rough proxy for the number of drug dealer related homicides. This would put dealers as having a homicide rate approximately 40x the base rate. This seems right to me.

I wonder if 'gang related' is a conflation with 'poor'. To be fair, have to measure folks in the same socioeconomic class and geography but not in gangs and compare?

I think homicide base rate for poverty is closer to 2x.

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#308

Post by JamesBarney » Fri, Jun 12, 2020, 3:08 PM UTC

ncallaway wrote: post #305

JamesBarney wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of a no knock warrant, being plain clothes, not announcing (disputed), and serving in the middle of the night is to not let the suspected perpetrator know the cops are serving him a warrant. Each of these decisions trades some risk of death and injury for an increased likelihood that the police officers will find drugs. I don't think this is a good trade-off, I don't think any amount of drugs you can…

"substantial and unjustifiable risk that the result will occur or that the circumstance exists" I'd argue that it's not likely also, but I would say it is substantial, which is sufficient under the law. I understand the reasoning provided. I think it wantonly risks death for unjustifiable reasons. They can provide their justifications, but to me (were I sitting on a jury) I would think an objective reasonable person…

Even though I personally think no knock warrants are unjustified and should be banned. I don't think it's reasonable to say it's a wanton disregard for life when so many judges and police departments disagree.

But I guess time will tell if they get charged and convicted.

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#309

Post by ncallaway » Fri, Jun 12, 2020, 3:33 PM UTC

JamesBarney wrote: post #308

ncallaway wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"substantial and unjustifiable risk that the result will occur or that the circumstance exists" I'd argue that it's not likely also, but I would say it is substantial, which is sufficient under the law. I understand the reasoning provided. I think it wantonly risks death for unjustifiable reasons. They can provide their justifications, but to me (were I sitting on a jury) I would think an objective reasonable person…

Even though I personally think no knock warrants are unjustified and should be banned. I don't think it's reasonable to say it's a wanton disregard for life when so many judges and police departments disagree. But I guess time will tell if they get charged and convicted.

> I don't think it's reasonable to say it's a wanton disregard for life when so many judges and police departments disagree.

You and I probably have disagreements about how the current system values a human life relative to their other goals. I have no problem viewing a police department (or many police departments) systematically acting in a wanton manner. That doesn't excuse the individuals that carry out the actions.

For the same reason "I was just following orders" is not a defense. Breaking the law is breaking the law—even if your bosses order it and other people are doing it.

Again, I also do not believe that most PDs carry out no-knock warrants with these facts. I suspect most PDs during a no-knock warrant will still use uniformed police officers and announce themselves as police.

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#310

Post by jussij » Fri, Jun 12, 2020, 3:49 PM UTC

josefx wrote: post #92

jussij wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can attest that in most of the other countries of the world, I'm not sure to which countries you are referring. But in many countries around the world this problem is greatly reduced, if not eliminated only because these countries also have strict gun laws that stop this happening.

It is interesting that the presence of guns is regarded as something that makes police work a lot harder and dangerous in the U.S. compared to the rest of the world, while the training of new officers is limited to weeks instead of years.

Too me it seems a fairly logical conclusion.

A police office in the US has to assume the perpetrator will be armed with a weapon and that then leads to the 'shoot first ask questions later' approach to policing.

Alternatively, places where guns are not so prevalent means that anxiety is greatly reduced.

As an example the majority of English police (i.e. bobbies) do their patrol work while not carrying a gun.