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New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

theintercept.com

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Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#21
post #8

Not on the topic of Facebook, but on employers who fear these trends so much that they want this level of control: Fundamental social shifts cannot be nipped in the bud. The best anyone can do is understand them and ensure the changes are gradual, rather than letting them build-up to a big bang. This is an oversimplification, but: early 20th century rise of communism was a violent backlash against the presiding monar…

>>is what we're seeing today just a passing trend or a fundamental shift? Facebook advertised to Walmart with union busting capabilities. Walmart has a union busting history going back 50 years minimum. Looking at public opinion on unions, it seems to be rising the past few years, while membership keeps going down (in the US).

> Facebook advertised to Walmart with union busting capabilities. Walmart has a union busting history going back 50 years minimum.

I am pretty certain this particular feature went the other way around: Facebook has to work very hard to retain customers on Workplace, because they're competing against Microsoft (who have extremely deep pockets, and arguably a better product in many regards).

I'm willing to bet Walmart went to Facebook and told them to implement this feature, or they'd jump ship. Certainly that's what's happened with other Workplace features in the past, such as the ability to control access for hourly employees.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#22
post #20

>>Section 1: The policy of the United States is to be carried out "by encouraging the practice and procedure of collective bargaining and by protecting the exercise by workers of full freedom of association, self-organization, and designation of representatives of their own choosing, for the purpose of negotiating the terms and conditions of their employment..." Section 7: "Employees shall have the right to self-orga…

The tool itself is generic, somebody at FB just thought it is a bright idea to use "unionize" as an example in a marketing pitch.

[deleted]

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#23
I guess we're past the point where codewords like "winnie the pooh" work but is NLP so advanced it can parse all the other ways human hint and indirectly communicate with each other?

Like can't I just send something like "hey coworker, lets do the thing that's opposite of ionized!". Or will the AI block my message (or more scarily, subtly rewrite it) and inform my manager?

This seems like tech with huge unintended consequences if perfected (even for their intended benign uses in workplaces) since it has the potential to be scaled up to censor society.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#24
> He added that the “oversight” was likely “lack of context versus bad intent from anyone on the team.”

What?! You're presenting a Workplace Chat tool and you're writing the slides for the feature of blocking certain topics and you use "unionize" as an example. How the fuck can you lack context here? Is the people writing the talks not aware what the talks are about or what?

Then there is not just the options of "lack of context" vs "bad intent", there is also "simply stupid", "some people at Facebook don't like unions", "wrong target audience" and "unexpected push back on something we care about". Instead they argue in bad faith that there is just two reasons here.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#25
I used to work at Facebook, and it was always interesting to me to see just how many engineers were actively against - aghast, even - at the idea of unions.

Whenever it would come up on the internal boards the arguments were usually along the lines of:

* "People who don't deserve to be paid more will get more money under a union"

* "I'll be paid less under a union"

* "Unions will slow us down, and we'll become more bureaucratic"

* "Unions are corrupt, and only care about themselves"

It was always clear that there was a huge misconception about what unions are, and how they work, based on the depiction of unions in popular culture or the past. When you talked about unions, people would think about the Teamsters, the police unions, etc.

Myself and others would end up pointing out that yes, that's true of some blur collar unions, but that's not what we're talking about. Think about the Writers Guild, or SAG. Dwayne Johnson earned $90 million last year - he still pays his union dues. You'd struggle to find any writer who didn't think the Writers Guild had actively improved their working conditions.

Are the various Hollywood unions perfect? No, they're not. But I think you would really struggle to argue that working conditions would be better for those in the creative arts without them.

Tech companies have spent a long time cultivating an image of benevolence towards their employees, but ultimately they are not your friends. You need somebody to fight your corner. Hollywood found this out years ago with the studios - hopefully Silicon Valley will discover it too, however unlikely it seems.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#26
post #12

>>Section 1: The policy of the United States is to be carried out "by encouraging the practice and procedure of collective bargaining and by protecting the exercise by workers of full freedom of association, self-organization, and designation of representatives of their own choosing, for the purpose of negotiating the terms and conditions of their employment..." Section 7: "Employees shall have the right to self-orga…

IANAL but I would assume FB is in the clear legally though as they're not actively blocking anything in particular, merely providing the tool with which admins can do the blocking themselves.

This is reminiscent of how Facebook used to allow people to microtarget job and housing ads to people based on protected classes like race, age, and gender. They ended up reaching a settlement and being forced to change their filter criteria due to civil rights laws. So I wouldn't be so sure that "merely providing the tool" is necessarily an entirely legal action.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#27
Clearly, they don't play online games with a chat lobby. They would have quickly learned that such features is useless, as it's easily bypassed:

- in novembre, we should cost them the electrons. Ionize!

- It's time we u_nionize

- un10n1z3 people !

- let's fetch the U:\N\I\O\N\I\Z\E file

- all go to http://unio.ni/ze

- so we should do the u-thingy

- what about talking to Mr Ulysse Nionize

- never too late to unᎥonize

In fact, it actually creates a sense of community by fostering a culture, make the movement stronger, and give it more visibility.

I'm assuming on this one that FB employees know this, and are just giving idiots what they ask for.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#28
post #25

I used to work at Facebook, and it was always interesting to me to see just how many engineers were actively against - aghast, even - at the idea of unions. Whenever it would come up on the internal boards the arguments were usually along the lines of: * "People who don't deserve to be paid more will get more money under a union" * "I'll be paid less under a union" * "Unions will slow us down, and we'll become more b…

I'm endlessly surprised that unions are collectively as bad at PR as their image suggests.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#29
post #8

Not on the topic of Facebook, but on employers who fear these trends so much that they want this level of control: Fundamental social shifts cannot be nipped in the bud. The best anyone can do is understand them and ensure the changes are gradual, rather than letting them build-up to a big bang. This is an oversimplification, but: early 20th century rise of communism was a violent backlash against the presiding monar…

> Dissatisfaction with growing wealth disparity at the time was a fundamental trend that could not have been "nipped in the bud".

Well, this was the whole idea of "Fabian" socialism, named after Fabius the Delayer: bring in reforms now, otherwise revolution will happen outside your control. A big part of the foundation of the UK Labour party.

It seems to me that the BLM movement is just such a "big bang" against a slow increase in racism and very long term failure to resolve problems in Americna policing.

Re: New Facebook tool allows employers to suppress “unionize” in workplace chat

#30
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL but I would assume FB is in the clear legally though as they're not actively blocking anything in particular, merely providing the tool with which admins can do the blocking themselves.

"it should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to which Baghdad could be given as a parameter."

It is not that simple. There's a continuum from writing a compiler to coding DestroyBaghdad. Usually people draw the line at "Is this tool primary purpose evil?".

This tool is in a (darkish-)gray area IMHO. I don't think that employer blocking "fuck" or racial slurs is necessarily evil but it's not that good either.

Automatic filters are pretty bad at doing their job, so filtering is a lame approach to solving anything.

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