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Why are there so many humans?

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Re: Why are there so many humans?

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The close knit tribe that thrived with cooperation is definitely in its death throes right now Is it? I think there are a lot of social systems that are being tested at the moment, some are failing. There are many developed countries that are improving their cooperation in the current crisis - I'm in one - Australia, there are others that have seemed to come together, and others that have failed abysmally. No doubt…

> I can imagine if you're in a country with a thousand deaths a day, things don't look good. You're obviously referring to the US during the pandemic of 1968-1969, which - as everyone knows - ended the United States forever, because things were so bad in tandem with the severe civil chaos occurring at the time (which was worse than anything going on now in multiple ways). The US never recovered; its superpower status…

I would ask that you reconsider your worldview. Its quite natural to speculate on the demise of the Superpower, because by its nature it is the Country that gets a lot of attention. This doesn't mean that a majority of the non-US peoples are actively rooting for its demise (maybe they are? Its an assertion that needs to be validated, perhaps with polls).

> It's why the never-ending expectations of our national demise and erosion, going all the way back to our formation, have always turned out so embarrassingly wrong. They're wrong now as well.

History has shown us that nearly every civilization that flourished and prospered also managed to vanish over a really short period of time. Societies are a lot more fragile than you would believe. American success is not based on some jingoistic manifest destiny; it is a country that has managed to get its fundamentals right. However, even the best prepared civilization can collapse in short order; its happened before, and there is no reason to believe it won't happen again.

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The close knit tribe that thrived with cooperation is definitely in its death throes right now Is it? I think there are a lot of social systems that are being tested at the moment, some are failing. There are many developed countries that are improving their cooperation in the current crisis - I'm in one - Australia, there are others that have seemed to come together, and others that have failed abysmally. No doubt…

> I can imagine if you're in a country with a thousand deaths a day, things don't look good. You're obviously referring to the US during the pandemic of 1968-1969, which - as everyone knows - ended the United States forever, because things were so bad in tandem with the severe civil chaos occurring at the time (which was worse than anything going on now in multiple ways). The US never recovered; its superpower status…

People have been crying wolf about the destruction of the US for a long time. But recently, when the President wanted to use the military on protestors, and was told no, it seemed like more than just the obvious, more than a recapitulation of the past. If they said yes, and then a state of emergency was declared, it sounds like a stereotypical way to go right to an excuse for suspending elections. I didn't really expect that people would let him do it, but it really seems like he would if he could. It's so pat.

As much as people have cried wolf over the last decade plus (maybe more, I don't recall) about whether there would be normal elections, I feel like now we have a discrete point in time where the (un)willingness of the volunteer military to do unconstitutional things is all that remains; the people and other institutions are no longer in control of our fate.

You can say, oh, we're fine, the military still has integrity. But it's a volunteer military that's become a distinct class; if they're the only bulwark, then we're very close to a military dictatorship. At best, it could be like in certain countries where they serve as a check on bad civilian governance.

So, I can still hope/think that this President as dictator is alarmism, but I can't say that if it is crying wolf, it is making me more confident the US will go on and on. He can end his term as an ineffectual wanna-be despot, but he's probing and outlining the weak points - how someone smarter and more respected and sympathetic can deal the final blow to the system. Someone said that history doesn't repeat, but it rhymes.

What recent events make me think of is the point Richard Feynman made about the O-rings in the Challenger investigation:

"To paraphrase Feynman's example, if engineers built a bridge that could bear 3,000 pounds without any damage, even though it was never expected to bear more than 1,000 pounds in practice, the safety factor would be 3. If a 1,000-pound truck drove across the bridge and a crack appeared in a beam, even just a third of the way through a beam, the safety factor is now zero: The bridge is defective, there was no safety factor at all even though the bridge did not actually collapse."

So yes, people were saying the same things in the 1970s. And they were wrong. But things always seem worse for good reason, and eventually, some day, things do fundamentally change. When things crack, but don't break completely, it is not necessarily a sign everything is fine.

Covid doesn't seem in itself like an existential threat to the US in particular, but any time it seems like people are denying reality that worries me, honestly scares me, and certainly it's been over a month that global daily cases are reaching new heights, while financial markets and the media seem detached and focused on reopening. Maybe we need to stay the course; maybe Mnuchin and many others are right that there's no going back, but the sense that people are imposing their wishes on reality, as though it is reality which will be forced to bend, feels like a bad premonition to me. I hate the idea of daring fate, of putting the all-powerful to the test.

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#43
I always like to learn about human skills that aren't obvious and that other animals, especially other great apes, lack

For example

Humans can throw good.

Humans can run very long.

Humans won't usually kill each other when put together in great masses.

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#44

Are we entering a new phase in human existence? The close knit tribe that thrived with cooperation is definitely in its death throes right now, at least in the developed world. Is it possible for us to cooperate on a global scale though, or are we still too primitive, our consciousness too weak to comprehend our place in such a massive system.

> The close knit tribe that thrived with cooperation is definitely in its death throes right now Is it? I think there are a lot of social systems that are being tested at the moment, some are failing. There are many developed countries that are improving their cooperation in the current crisis - I'm in one - Australia, there are others that have seemed to come together, and others that have failed abysmally. No doubt…

Taking a look at some other "social systems that are being tested at the moment", I don't think your claim that Australia is "coming together" in comparison to other "developed countries" is correct. Some examples:

* Brisbane's "Boundary St" still exists, name unchanged [0].

* Story from less than 1 hour ago: 4 month-old baby of indigenous women dies while mother is in police custody [1].

* PM calls Australian BLM protests "completely unacceptable"[2], urges people not to attend[3], while "think[ing] to [himself] how wonderful a country Australia is" [4].

* The mounting spread of COVID-19 conspiracies, including the "Wake Up Australia" campaign [5].

* Australia participating in spying on its citizens [6], passing anti-encryption laws [7].

[0] https://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/calls-for-brisba...

[1] https://www.news.com.au/national/northern-territory/fourmont...

[2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-11/black-lives-matter-pr...

[3] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-05/pm-tells-people-not-t...

[4] https://www.sbs.com.au/news/quoting-a-meme-scott-morrison-sa...

[5] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-12/asio-briefing-warns-f...

[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes

[7] https://www.wired.com/story/australia-encryption-law-global-...

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#45
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can imagine if you're in a country with a thousand deaths a day, things don't look good. You're obviously referring to the US during the pandemic of 1968-1969, which - as everyone knows - ended the United States forever, because things were so bad in tandem with the severe civil chaos occurring at the time (which was worse than anything going on now in multiple ways). The US never recovered; its superpower status…

I would ask that you reconsider your worldview. Its quite natural to speculate on the demise of the Superpower, because by its nature it is the Country that gets a lot of attention. This doesn't mean that a majority of the non-US peoples are actively rooting for its demise (maybe they are? Its an assertion that needs to be validated, perhaps with polls). > It's why the never-ending expectations of our national demise…

I look back to the 50's in the US (and most western countries I believe) - a time when science and education were respected and educating and housing the citizenry was the goal. As a result of this and other events the booms of the 70's occurred.

There seems to be a reversal of this - science is actively disregarded by a large part of the population, education is not respected, a large and growing part of the population is disenfranchised and so on. These are not good portents imho.

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#46

I know this is off topic, but: There are too many of us. If we can't override our survival instinct to multiply (and consume) uncontrollably, then we are at risk of making ourselves extinct. Then there will be none of us.

Given the timescales that humans operate on, it would be incredibly strange for us to reproduce into extinction. As far as direct effects, an unmitigated exponential growth trend would eventually result in widespread famine and other resource restrictions leading to a population-limiting amount of death. Not extinction, but not much fun either.

Long term accumulating issues that become unrecoverable past a tipping point could be a source of extinction (e.g. extreme worst case climate change). Here, yes, exponential growth could hasten extinction in a world where people weren't trying to stop the catastrophe, but...

1. Empirically, we're not on an exponential curve or anything close to it. Many developed countries would be in population decline without immigration.

2. Generally, the best solution to problems of efficiency or long term threats is improved technology, not reducing population. In the concrete case of climate change, cutting emissions per capita by >50% is both achievable and clearly superior to the Thanos approach.

3. More people can produce a more interesting universe to live in. Imagine a solar system colonized with 10 trillion humans: provided we build the requisite efficient infrastructure to unfetter human creativity, we would have the capacity to produce over a thousand times as many isekai animes.

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#47

I know this is off topic, but: There are too many of us. If we can't override our survival instinct to multiply (and consume) uncontrollably, then we are at risk of making ourselves extinct. Then there will be none of us.

Probably not none of us, but when the system collapses due to lack of resources the number of humans will drastically fall as well. Kind of like how a forest fire doesn't just immediately disappear when all for he trees are burned, there remain embers burning for days or weeks after.

"It was calculated already in the 1960s by the Agricultural Economics Research Institute, Oxford, that the agricultural productivity, even at that time, would be more than sufficient to feed 45 billion people globally."[1]

Granted, there's much more to sustaining humans than just food, but come on let's apply some engineering to the problem first before giving up.

There's another, better reference but it escapes me at the moment- something calculating that with various engineering techniques applied to the planet, 100 billion people shouldn't be an issue.

Edit: Wow has it been 15-17 years already? Good seeing you.

[1] Agricultural productivity in relation to population, 1963

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#48
post #33

I know this is off topic, but: There are too many of us. If we can't override our survival instinct to multiply (and consume) uncontrollably, then we are at risk of making ourselves extinct. Then there will be none of us.

That may be eventually true, but we're much further from that point than you might think. The U.S. alone wastes about 141 trillion calories worth of food. It comes out to around 1250 calories per capita. Feeding the world is a logistics problem right now, not a production problem. And we also have the space for all 7 billion humans with room to spare. I think right now, there's enough for everybody to have about 4 ac…

Pure caloric need may be a non-issue but I don't think it's sustainable for every living human to have a first world lifestyle barring many tech improvements.

It's seems preferable to have a lower stable population where everyone has a very high standard of living and a low aggregate environmental impact.

A flat cap of two children per person would halt and slowly reduce the population without killing anyone or being unfair to specific groups.

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#49

Arghh it's that site with the "Yes I love humans" / "No I'm not human" popup obscuring the screen after a few seconds again. It's kind of cute, but my natural response to that is back button. I don't know what it's trying to say. Can't be just me it puts off like that. What a shame, it seemed like a fascinating article.

Just disable Javascript. It makes almost all content-based sites so much better and easier to read.

Also blank pages are good for your imagination.

Re: Why are there so many humans?

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can imagine if you're in a country with a thousand deaths a day, things don't look good. You're obviously referring to the US during the pandemic of 1968-1969, which - as everyone knows - ended the United States forever, because things were so bad in tandem with the severe civil chaos occurring at the time (which was worse than anything going on now in multiple ways). The US never recovered; its superpower status…

People have been crying wolf about the destruction of the US for a long time. But recently, when the President wanted to use the military on protestors, and was told no, it seemed like more than just the obvious, more than a recapitulation of the past. If they said yes, and then a state of emergency was declared, it sounds like a stereotypical way to go right to an excuse for suspending elections. I didn't really exp…

This sounds both accurate and very depressing. The frightening aspect for me personally is that even if the current President loses the election and leaves office peacefully, he has transformed his party, perhaps permanently. Its not just him, its been happening for a while. But the country cannot be governed by a single party; it needs both parties to function. If one of them refuses to accept reality and scientific facts, I doubt that the country can continue to function, even if the people holding majority are qualified and sensible.

This was incredibly clear during the Obama Administration. Not sure what kind of inane cultural wars will consume the next one.

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