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Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

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Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#121

Post by solidasparagus »

staplers wrote: post #116
solidasparagus wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically the music festivals I've been to. It's fun and a wonderful feeling for a while, but eventually the idiots/assholes will become a problem that needs to be dealt with. Or nature throws a disaster at you and there is chaos. It's a little hard to come up with historical examples because the utopia portion is often quite short and overshadowed by the negatives that follow. Generally, I would point to almost a…

eventually the idiots/assholes will become a problem that needs to be dealt with Like the police force?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. While many of the police actions are inexcusable, trying to have a society without an active group of people enforcing law and order doesn't work well. Just look at Baltimore for the downsides of police inaction.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#122

Post by ian-g »

malandrew wrote: post #81
rayiner wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The list of demands is extremely tame for a fricking anarchist commune. Look at the list of "economic demands." The biggest ask is de-gentrification and rent control.

Those asks seem pretty incompatible with property law and the legislative process. You can't just unilaterally demand something like rent control and de-gentrification measures. The city government shouldn't even have (and probably doesn't have) the power to meet such demands.

But they should try something. Maybe degentrification could include a city requirement not to displace people when building new housing. The developer puts the previous occupant up and then guarantees them their same rent for, say, a decade going forward

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#123

Post by missedthecue »

JPKab wrote: post #101
conroy wrote: post #84

A friend lives in Seattle and texted me today about his visit last night: > I was there last night and it's such a cool pseudo utopian place > The media coverage of it is WILD > People on the internet are convinced it's protected by armed guards and people are dying of hunger and instead its...like a music festival campground > There are speakers, musicians, art walls. I took a group pic for a bunch of black guys las…

"they were so proud of what was built" Curious, since I can't trust news media to not sensationalize this: What has been built, according to your friend? Have they set up infrastructure of some sort for housing people? Kitchens, latrines, etc?

They put up a cardboard sign that said "you are now leaving the USA" and graffitied some surfaces.

https://i.imgur.com/f6VHPJ0.jpg

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#124

Post by earthicus »

0xddd wrote: post #99
solidasparagus wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a music festival campground Which is fun for a while until people start dying or fighting like they always do and suddenly you need a group of people who spend their time dealing with it. Anarchic utopias do not stay utopic for all that long.

What examples do you have in mind when you say this? The main case studies that I see get brought up are Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War and the Paris Commune, but the wartime pressures that led to their collapse strike me as much different from the present situation. I think the CHAZ will be an interesting experiment given the context.

There were quite a few utopian socialist (not necessarily anarchist) projects started in the United States in the 19th century, especially following the proto-socialist Charles Fourier. Wikipedia has a list based on a wide variety of different philosophies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Utopian_commu...

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#125

Post by solidasparagus »

Kye wrote: post #119
solidasparagus wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Specifically the music festivals I've been to. It's fun and a wonderful feeling for a while, but eventually the idiots/assholes will become a problem that needs to be dealt with. Or nature throws a disaster at you and there is chaos. It's a little hard to come up with historical examples because the utopia portion is often quite short and overshadowed by the negatives that follow. Generally, I would point to almost a…

They're trying out the many proposed and proven methods of community management other than armed, poorly-trained cops. Music festivals aren't trying to prove the viability of alternative societal structures. They're different things.

And I hope it works. But history says it's going to go poorly and they're going to need to end up with something resembling a police force, even if they don't call it that.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#126

Post by staplers »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #55
blaser-waffle wrote: post #8

I believe Denmark had something like this for a while. It started with squatters taking over an area kind of like this. Turned into a serious drug venue and eventually fell apart. Sounds like it sort of restarted, albeit with regular Danish law enforcement and other city resources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania

> Turned into a serious drug venue and eventually fell apart. Sounds like it sort of restarted, albeit with regular Danish law enforcement and other city resources. As someone living in Copenhagen, I would not consider that anything near an accurate description of the history of Christiania. What happened was that an old military area and barracks was left abandoned and disused, so a group of squatters moved in, fixe…

I would implore everyone to think critically about the term "serious drug use" when used in the media to vilify scenarios and people.

Often these people need help and are self-medicating as anyone using traditional western medicine does (albeit with non-corporate drugs).

This type of stereotype further allows police to run wild and unchecked to "solve the drug problem" by beating and harassing than by actually solving any problem like a social worker is more likely to.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#127

Post by rabidrat »

kixiQu wrote: post #97
haram_masala wrote: post #92

I don't live there, but there's something about all this that make it seem like a wildly overblown media event - that the actual thing itself is much more pedestrian and much less sensational than reports would have us believe.

I live there. This is correct in that the CHAZ itself has its biggest impacts through a. having free snacks and b. not allowing through traffic, but it really hasn't been stated enough how awful it had been when the police were there. Helicopters all night and if you were unlucky to be close enough: https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/06/04/43840246/seattle...

This is correct. I live 3 blocks from CHAZ and I was gassed in my apartment 3 nights last week. I feel much safer without the police around right now.

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#129

Post by basementcat »

blaser-waffle wrote: post #8

I believe Denmark had something like this for a while. It started with squatters taking over an area kind of like this. Turned into a serious drug venue and eventually fell apart. Sounds like it sort of restarted, albeit with regular Danish law enforcement and other city resources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania

Hong Kong had the Kowloon Walled City for nearly a century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City

Re: Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone

#130

Post by Kye »

solidasparagus wrote: post #125
Kye wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're trying out the many proposed and proven methods of community management other than armed, poorly-trained cops. Music festivals aren't trying to prove the viability of alternative societal structures. They're different things.

And I hope it works. But history says it's going to go poorly and they're going to need to end up with something resembling a police force, even if they don't call it that.

I don't know how your interactions with police have gone, but I've never had them show up when I called, and most accounts I hear are that they don't do anything at best when they do. At worst, they kill someone. Most of what they do is not stuff they should be doing.

There's some niche a well-trained police force can fill, but it's a lot smaller than what the poorly-trained forces do now. Almost no one is actually calling for a complete and permanent abolition of police. Just a redefinition of their role.

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