Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site • Hacker News Board

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#321

Post by ris » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 8:53 PM UTC

Vinnl wrote: post #207

jacquesm wrote: post #89

I have three favorite properties on the web: Wikipedia, the Khan Academy and the Internet Archive. Whoever thought this was a good idea should own up to it and step down, this was a dumb move if there ever was one and risking one of the prime - and very fragile - properties on the web like this was highly irresponsible. Keep in mind that IA already has plenty of enemies who are continuously monitoring it and hoping t…

That's a good list, but OpenStreetMaps should really be added to it :)

I'm an old-time OSMer, but really I have had zero use for any kind of map in the last 2 months.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#322

Post by cfmcdonald » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 8:57 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #280

JoshTriplett wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't fail, they were sued out of business. They had a good, innovative product that people wanted, and they got killed by a lawsuit. This is the tradeoff we're making when we grant more exclusive privileges over works: we kill innovations like these, and we get...probably not any more creative works than we would have gotten otherwise.

>They had a good, innovative product They had a product that involved giving away other people's stuff. Yes, copyright terms are too long. But I'm pretty sure that a vanishingly small amount of that stuff they were giving away would be out of copyright even with a copyright term of 20 years.

Aereo's business model was almost exactly identical to how the cable industry started - capture an over-the-air signal and deliver it to customers over a landline channel.

If Aereo was in the wrong than the cable industry probably should never have existed.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#323

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 8:59 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #49

ComputerGuru wrote: post #27

I warned about this very outcome when they announced the initiative [0]. The Internet Archive is too big and too important to gamble on this short term of a win (giving everyone free and unlimited access to all books for a few months at most). Assuming the organization continues to exist after this ordeal, their entire board should step down for putting at risk one of the most invaluable archives in existence. I’m an…

If you want to establish a legal precedent, you can't just go to a court and ask them to. Courts only hear "cases and controversies" -- to establish what the law is, you have to get somebody to sue you. The reason this could bankrupt them is mostly because they don't have a lot of money. Their net assets are only a couple million dollars. They have to raise more than that every year just to keep operating. But it's a…

You probably want to be sure you can win.

Actual Libraries buy materials and loan them. I don't think that is what archive.org was doing. I don't think the content owners are being bad guys here.

I found this initiative really irritating, as there are almost certainly better ways to accomplish the objective legally.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#324

Post by slaymaker1907 » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 9:07 PM UTC

I’m a big supporter of IA, but they really goofed on this one. I donated after this incident but mostly because I don’t want this lawsuit to shut them down.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#325

Post by mcguire » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

ascorbic wrote: post #318

mcguire wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Releasing all of these copyrighted books for free hurt authors who rely on royalties to live... " Clearly, we should shut down all the other libraries, too.

Libraries buy the books, and pay further royalties when they're lent out.

"...pay further royalties when they're lent out."

Not in the US.

https://stevelaube.com/will-libraries-eventually-pay-authors...

In the UK/Ireland, "the author received about 10 cents (U.S.) per use, with a max of $8,500 (U.S.) per year" but "the copyright holder must be a citizen of that country to participate".

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#326

Post by behringer » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #309

ghaff wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They had a good, innovative product They had a product that involved giving away other people's stuff. Yes, copyright terms are too long. But I'm pretty sure that a vanishingly small amount of that stuff they were giving away would be out of copyright even with a copyright term of 20 years.

Well I really take issue with the idea that IP is "other people's stuff". I might say they were giving away copies of data that the government had granted others a monopoly on. I am being intentionally pedantic because copyright is much more harmful than people give it credit for. The internet archive is desperately trying to give people free books and others are trying to stop them.

I'm sure if you wrote a book you would be a bit annoyed.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#327

Post by ghaff » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

cfmcdonald wrote: post #322

ghaff wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They had a good, innovative product They had a product that involved giving away other people's stuff. Yes, copyright terms are too long. But I'm pretty sure that a vanishingly small amount of that stuff they were giving away would be out of copyright even with a copyright term of 20 years.

Aereo's business model was almost exactly identical to how the cable industry started - capture an over-the-air signal and deliver it to customers over a landline channel. If Aereo was in the wrong than the cable industry probably should never have existed.

There were lawsuits around the cable industry and they ended up having to re-license content as I understand it.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#328

Post by behringer » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

HellsMaddy wrote: post #61

I'm surprised and disappointed that the IA ever thought this would go over well, though I do respect the reasons for which they took these actions. Circumstances around the COVID-19 lockdowns have been very unusual. If you consider the hundreds of millions (+?) of books in libraries around the world that were temporarily inaccessible to people, including children and students, I feel the IA's actions were somewhat ju…

I'm angry they would risk their entire operation over this.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#329

Post by cfmcdonald » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 9:21 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #327

cfmcdonald wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aereo's business model was almost exactly identical to how the cable industry started - capture an over-the-air signal and deliver it to customers over a landline channel. If Aereo was in the wrong than the cable industry probably should never have existed.

There were lawsuits around the cable industry and they ended up having to re-license content as I understand it.

Yes, in 1976 Congress passed new legislation that forced them to pay up. By that time the cable industry was well-established and could afford it (and they had enough of an audience that the broadcasters had a strong incentive to make rights deals). If the same rules had been in place and enforced in the 50s and 60s, I doubt there ever would have been a cable industry.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#330

Post by m4rtink » Thu, Jun 11, 2020, 9:25 PM UTC

hundchenkatze wrote: post #286

mcguire wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Releasing all of these copyrighted books for free hurt authors who rely on royalties to live... " Clearly, we should shut down all the other libraries, too.

Physical libraries can't, easily, purchase a book once and loan it out an infinite number of copies at the same time.

With modern technology they can. Isn't it better to enhance this new technology rather than pretend we are stuck back in the middle ages ?

We finally have the technology to protect knowledge and culture forever and instead we are trying to invent ways to artificially limit this that could result in important literary works being lost not not mention misused for censorship and suppressing of "unwanted" information.