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Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

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Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#91

Post by jacquesm »

beebmam wrote: post #36
ComputerGuru wrote: post #27

I warned about this very outcome when they announced the initiative [0]. The Internet Archive is too big and too important to gamble on this short term of a win (giving everyone free and unlimited access to all books for a few months at most). Assuming the organization continues to exist after this ordeal, their entire board should step down for putting at risk one of the most invaluable archives in existence. I’m an…

For me, I can't help but place blame on the actual agents of its potential demise: the plaintiffs of this lawsuit

IA has ruffled a lot of feathers over the years with their copying of copyrighted content, putting all the eggs in a single basket was understandable given the resource constraints they are operating under, starting a war using that basket as a shield was not the best move they could have made, especially knowing who the opposition is.

The publishers have been out for their blood for a long time, this is essentially handing them a very easy victory. They'll be very lucky if they survive - and so will we.

Assuming it is possible to copy the data I would support an effort to make an off-line backup on the off chance that they get shut down completely and lose access to their assets.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#92

Post by jacquesm »

echelon wrote: post #25

Could the Internet Archive donate its holdings to a new nonprofit? If the servers were transferred to a new custodian and the anticipated bandwidth charges were paid forward, then what would they have to lose?

Adding bankruptcy fraud to the list of items on the docket is likely not the best way forward.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#93

Post by ascorbic »

efreak wrote: post #78
ascorbic wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most public libraries have ebook lending, and there are lots of free sources that don't pose an existential threat to the archive

I know only a comparatively small number of people who own library cards. You cannot check out an ebook from the library without a library card. You cannot get a lovely card without physically entering the library. If you did not have a library card when the library closed, or you left it unused until it expired, then you cannot check out ebooks from the public library. Last I checked, there was, I think, 3 public li…

Right, bit the justification for this was that libraries were closed because of covid. If people weren't using them before then it doesn't affect them

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#94

Post by [deleted] »

manigandham wrote: post #64
matheusmoreira wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Libraries should be enabled to digitally lend their physical holdings and not have to rely on these eBook licenses, and CDL is a great model to that effect. Why must we come up with increasingly complicated ways to hide the fact unlimited copies are available? The right thing to do is to abolish copyright. It's time to stop pretending copyright makes sense in the 21st century.

Just because the marginal cost of a copy is zero does not mean there's no value in the information, and it's perfectly reasonable to gate access to that value. Copying a video file is free too but I'm sure you wouldn't argue that anyone can watch a movie for free just because someone else made it. People have a right to own and control the distribution of their works that they invested in creating.

[deleted]

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#95

Post by kalium-xyz »

jariel wrote: post #79
kalium-xyz wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The archived internet is far larger in text alone than everything published before the information age.

" far larger " ... 'size' is really not that important. What matters is the content, it's uniqueness and relative importance. Libraries, even books (let alone literacy) during antiquity were rare and generally unique, remember, this is before the printed press. The Library at Alexandria was a 'first-order' source of knowledge and wisdom, a place where 'intellectual luminaries' (i.e. big rabbis of the day) would have…

The internet archive is a universal archive of the internet rather than just what is exposed trough their wayback machine. You are comparing a quantifiable well indexed archive of any online with one which is not quantifiable due to being lost to history. There are similarities between the efforts of the Library at Alexandria and the internet archive which make them comparable, so lets.

>'size' is really not that important. [...] each one a historical artifact.

The uniqueness of content in the internet archive is significantly greater by virtue of there simply being more unique knowledge at this point. Knowledge which would be lost (often intentionally) if not for efforts such as the internet archive, or that of the Library at Alexandria.

The library made copies of the knowledge for the original owners rather than having the only copy. making every copy most likely non-unique. The value in its indexing is immense especially when you realize that useful information is only useful within a context where it can be applied and cannot be valued outside of it.

>Losing the Library at Alexandria would be like ...

This did not happen.

>If the Library continued to exist in its fullest form, we may very well have much more of our history [...] orbital physics.

Imagine if a similar effort to archive exists today and in a few thousand years we would be able to use it, this is how I see the internet archive. The archive and efforts like it are used as a first source of knowledge by wikipedia, students, developers, researchers, anyone needing to verify a business existing prior to the investor call. If there was not an archive of the Feynman lectures I would know nothing about orbital physics now, if the current hosts are lost I am very very glad that the internet archive has a copy.

>If the contents of IA [...] important).

Personally I would like to know if homedepot existed 14 years ago if I wanted to do business with them and they claimed so, or if they tried to censor anything (that case of the US government having honeypot sites archives with code comes to mind). Things which would be lost if not for the specific functionality you are mentioning. Also there are many many other efforts, unlike you seem to state (e.g. archive.is, ipfs, the-eye.eu).

Perhaps the most powerful argument: https://web.archive.org/web/*/news.ycombinator.com

edit: I have archived our comments for historical context for anyone studying internet discussion in the year 3020 https://web.archive.org/web/20200611105240/https://news.ycom... https://web.archive.org/web/20200611105414/https://news.ycom...

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#96

Post by kalium-xyz »

readarticle wrote: post #57
Ygg2 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yes, the library was smaller.

And it was hardly the only one around at the time, many other libraries in many other Greek cities with Pergamum probably being the most notable.

The same can be said about the internet archive though.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#97

Post by som33 »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #88
som33 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Copyright is neither moral nor immoral. Except you're wrong, idea's are not rivalrous goods. Imagine if someone copyrighted the alphabet and we had to pay $5 a word. Rent seeking puts a damper on global productivity by allowing people to take information hostage. It can also be used as a tool for censorship. Right now copyright is censoring culture and I'm watching videogame history being destroyed on the PC due to…

As I said: > Whether or not you think the existing copyright laws have exceeded their purpose is a completely different discussion Bringing up another completely seperate category of abuse is again another completely different discussion, and completely not relevant to this one.

You're clueless, it is directly relevant, you said "copyright laws are neither moral or immorral" which is a bs statement because every rule (which it is) has political consequences, you need a giant state to declare "some ideas are not sharable". AKA copyright is a cultural construct that evolved in one particular society at a particular point in history, not a natural law.

So no, you don't get the idea of owning ideas is directly itself an attack on freedom itself, aka if you can claim you own ideas you can use violence against others because you believe in that idea. The problem you're not seeing is that it's impossible to enforce property rights for ideas while not infringing on basic human freedoms. Copyright is backdoor to get rid of property rights for the public by associating it with software/technology.

The idea that we just need "good regulation" to stop the abuses, is bs, since the last 200 years of copyright has always seen its power and abuse expanded and not reduced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act#/...

So you're the one making disingenuous arguments. Since our culture is literally being irrevocably destroyed and there's no way much culture during this period will be saved because of the lawlessness of the USA and general idiocy of its citizenry.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#98

Post by gridlockd »

beebmam wrote: post #36
ComputerGuru wrote: post #27

I warned about this very outcome when they announced the initiative [0]. The Internet Archive is too big and too important to gamble on this short term of a win (giving everyone free and unlimited access to all books for a few months at most). Assuming the organization continues to exist after this ordeal, their entire board should step down for putting at risk one of the most invaluable archives in existence. I’m an…

For me, I can't help but place blame on the actual agents of its potential demise: the plaintiffs of this lawsuit

That's a bit like blaming the iceberg for sinking the Titanic. I mean, what did you expect was going to happen?

Either way, whoever gets the blame doesn't matter to the outcome. Court rulings don't have to be popular.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#99

Post by gridlockd »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #81
ComputerGuru wrote: post #27

I warned about this very outcome when they announced the initiative [0]. The Internet Archive is too big and too important to gamble on this short term of a win (giving everyone free and unlimited access to all books for a few months at most). Assuming the organization continues to exist after this ordeal, their entire board should step down for putting at risk one of the most invaluable archives in existence. I’m an…

Isn't it better to have people learn from their mistakes (if this is a mistake) - at least, perhaps, learn to be more circumspect - rather than just getting rid of people who have experience of making mistakes? I hate that whole thing about requiring people to resign because they made a mistake (if it's genuine); obviously a pattern of mistakes is different. An obvious blunder would also be different, where it was se…

That doesn't seem like an honest mistake, everyone knew this was very risky move. In such a case, someone has to be accountable. There can't be only upsides and no downsides for taking risks.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#100

Post by jariel »

kalium-xyz wrote: post #95
jariel wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" far larger " ... 'size' is really not that important. What matters is the content, it's uniqueness and relative importance. Libraries, even books (let alone literacy) during antiquity were rare and generally unique, remember, this is before the printed press. The Library at Alexandria was a 'first-order' source of knowledge and wisdom, a place where 'intellectual luminaries' (i.e. big rabbis of the day) would have…

The internet archive is a universal archive of the internet rather than just what is exposed trough their wayback machine. You are comparing a quantifiable well indexed archive of any online with one which is not quantifiable due to being lost to history. There are similarities between the efforts of the Library at Alexandria and the internet archive which make them comparable, so lets. >'size' is really not that imp…

1) "virtue of there simply being more unique knowledge at this point."

>>>>>>> the IA is not 'knowledge' it's 'information' and most of it is irrelevant to anything - more importantly: All of the important information in the IA is well documented elsewhere. We don't need the IA for much at all.

2) Losing the Library at Alexandria would be like ... This did not happen.

>>>>>>> Of course it did! Lucio Russo / "Forgotten revolution" argues that a large part of the scientific knowledge of the Hellenistic era was lost.

3) "Personally I would like to know if homedepot existed 14 years ago if I wanted to do business with them and they claimed so, or if they tried to censor anything (that case of the US government having honeypot sites archives with code comes to mind)."

>>>>>>> If that's a good example use case - then you've proven my point because there are exactly 0 people in this world using IA to see if 'some business existed 10 years ago in order that they might do business with them due to concerns of honey potting'.

4) "Imagine if a similar effort to archive exists today and in a few thousand years we would be able to use it, this is how I see the internet archive."

>>>>>> Some contents IA might be a little bit useful to a few historians, but beyond that, it will have no meaning.

The IA could be cut down to 1/1000000 it's size, and still, maintain it's historical relevance.

If the IA were vaporized today, it wouldn't really matter that much, there's nothing in there we need, and the important content is saved elsewhere. The NYT has a great archive.

The internet is mostly noise and babble, most of it is not important at all. Some of it is.

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