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Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

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Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#71

Post by bubblethink »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #49
ComputerGuru wrote: post #27

I warned about this very outcome when they announced the initiative [0]. The Internet Archive is too big and too important to gamble on this short term of a win (giving everyone free and unlimited access to all books for a few months at most). Assuming the organization continues to exist after this ordeal, their entire board should step down for putting at risk one of the most invaluable archives in existence. I’m an…

If you want to establish a legal precedent, you can't just go to a court and ask them to. Courts only hear "cases and controversies" -- to establish what the law is, you have to get somebody to sue you. The reason this could bankrupt them is mostly because they don't have a lot of money. Their net assets are only a couple million dollars. They have to raise more than that every year just to keep operating. But it's a…

What would the precedent be anyway ? It's not a major victory to have some national emergency exception for DMCA.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#72

Post by kalium-xyz »

jariel wrote: post #45
bosswipe wrote: post #7

Losing the Wayback Machine alone as a free resource would be a tragedy of bigger magnitude than the destruction of the Library of Alexandria. It must be saved!

"would be a tragedy of bigger magnitude than the destruction of the Library of Alexandria." No, it would not even be close to that scale.

The archived internet is far larger in text alone than everything published before the information age.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#73

Post by Cthulhu_ »

sxates wrote: post #18

I've got a synology NAS with at least 10TB spare capacity I could donate... If only there were a way to use it, and thousands more, to back up important projects like this in a decentralized way.

I keep thinking that the Bittorrent protocol would be an ideal fit for this; specifically, it would need a way to have all peers agree on what chunks of a file they themselves host and share to ensure the most complete copies available. And it would need a system for keeping it updated.

I wouldn't mind hosting a NAS in my closet and some bandwidth + storage to donate to the IA.

I also think cloud providers - all of them - have the capacity to host backups of the IA; I'd prefer if companies like Amazon, Google would donate their storage and bandwidth capacity to the IA instead of just money.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#74

Post by raxxorrax »

beebmam wrote: post #36
ComputerGuru wrote: post #27

I warned about this very outcome when they announced the initiative [0]. The Internet Archive is too big and too important to gamble on this short term of a win (giving everyone free and unlimited access to all books for a few months at most). Assuming the organization continues to exist after this ordeal, their entire board should step down for putting at risk one of the most invaluable archives in existence. I’m an…

For me, I can't help but place blame on the actual agents of its potential demise: the plaintiffs of this lawsuit

Yes, I think that perspective is actually more relevant, even if the IA might have made a mistake.

But I see only victims in this conflict. Most authors today don't really eat with golden spoons and to have an organisation that helps them get their fair share of the work they put into the books is certainly necessary in the internet age.

On the other hand the internet archive is an extremely valuable service. I hope some form of agreement can be reached that doesn't end in even more dysfunctional laws or judgments around copyright or the end of business for any participant.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#75

Post by abduhl »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #49
ComputerGuru wrote: post #27

I warned about this very outcome when they announced the initiative [0]. The Internet Archive is too big and too important to gamble on this short term of a win (giving everyone free and unlimited access to all books for a few months at most). Assuming the organization continues to exist after this ordeal, their entire board should step down for putting at risk one of the most invaluable archives in existence. I’m an…

If you want to establish a legal precedent, you can't just go to a court and ask them to. Courts only hear "cases and controversies" -- to establish what the law is, you have to get somebody to sue you. The reason this could bankrupt them is mostly because they don't have a lot of money. Their net assets are only a couple million dollars. They have to raise more than that every year just to keep operating. But it's a…

Small point: you don’t technically have to wait until someone sues you. It is possible to seek a declaratory judgment (where a court issues a legal finding) without waiting to be sued. You do have to show that there is an actual controversy before a court will hear you, as you note.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#76

Post by nmstoker »

MrStonedOne wrote: post #26
ascorbic wrote: post #10

The publishers should stop now that they've taken them down, but this was grossly irresponsible of the Internet Archive to do this, and they brought it on themselves. Releasing all of these copyrighted books for free hurt authors who rely on royalties to live, and it was inevitable that publishers would sue. I honestly don't understand why they did it. They have a responsibility as custodians of the archive to not pu…

>I honestly don't understand why they did it. Its right there in the article. >In March, as the COVID-19 pandemic led to the shutdown of public libraries , the Internet Archive created the National Emergency Library and temporarily suspended book waitlists Public libraries got shut down, they opened a replacement. Makes perfect sense to me.

If they had increased their lending by a finite amount, matching the number of copies in closed libraries they'd been in touch with, then I could sort of understand an increase in keen lending over their normal levels, as it would not be putting the publishers in a worse overall position. However, as it stands the unlimited lending seems naïve and ill thought through.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#78

Post by efreak »

ascorbic wrote: post #34
MrStonedOne wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I honestly don't understand why they did it. Its right there in the article. >In March, as the COVID-19 pandemic led to the shutdown of public libraries , the Internet Archive created the National Emergency Library and temporarily suspended book waitlists Public libraries got shut down, they opened a replacement. Makes perfect sense to me.

Most public libraries have ebook lending, and there are lots of free sources that don't pose an existential threat to the archive

I know only a comparatively small number of people who own library cards. You cannot check out an ebook from the library without a library card. You cannot get a lovely card without physically entering the library. If you did not have a library card when the library closed, or you left it unused until it expired, then you cannot check out ebooks from the public library.

Last I checked, there was, I think, 3 public libraries in California that allowed you to get a library card without being present. One of them required verification in some other method (fax? I can't remember), the other two had a second level card that didn't give access to ebooks or other library resources.

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#79

Post by jariel »

kalium-xyz wrote: post #72
jariel wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"would be a tragedy of bigger magnitude than the destruction of the Library of Alexandria." No, it would not even be close to that scale.

The archived internet is far larger in text alone than everything published before the information age.

" far larger "

... 'size' is really not that important. What matters is the content, it's uniqueness and relative importance.

Libraries, even books (let alone literacy) during antiquity were rare and generally unique, remember, this is before the printed press.

The Library at Alexandria was a 'first-order' source of knowledge and wisdom, a place where 'intellectual luminaries' (i.e. big rabbis of the day) would have studied. Possibly every single book represented a unique bit of knowledge, and each one a historical artifact.

Losing the Library at Alexandria would be like losing 15% of all Universities, professors, all of their papers, textbooks, 15% of authors, playwrights, all of their works, 15% of all written history - basically most or all copies of their works, vanished into thin air, for all of time.

If the Library continued to exist in its fullest form, we may very well have much more of our history pieced together.

The Internet Archive is not even a 'second-order' resource. It's nice to have, and useful particularly for some historical reasons, but if it were to evaporate tomorrow, civilization wouldn't skip a beat.

There is no specialized, arcane knowledge there. Parts of the IA are of course really nice to have, particularly the news which forms a kind of historical record. But old copies of 'HomeDepot.com' and 'McDonalds.com' are just not that important.

We don't use the IA as a source of science, physics, fiction, students don't go to the IA to access authors' works or textbooks on orbital physics.

If the contents of IA were seriously valuable, then quite a number of parties would be interested in maintaining it, first of all, the parties being documented (if HomeDepot.com doesn't care about their 2006 web-site, then maybe it's not so important).

I support the IA and I would hope that it was even a kind of government-sponsored agency, but it's not an 'intellectual foundation'.

(Edit: changed from 25% to 15%, it's just a number obviously, but my point being 'it's some material share of the compendium of knowledge')

Re: Activists rally to save Internet Archive as lawsuit threatens site

#80

Post by swiley »

At least the internet archive usually follows the law. When IA is gone everyone will just go to libgen which actively opposes copyright. Not only that but a bunch of history will be lost and source links on Wikipedia will break.

IMO: most publishers are worthless anyway. I feel bad for authors but it’s hard to sympathize with publishers.

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