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Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

usatoday.com

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Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#41

Post by [deleted] »

codezero wrote: post #16
rayiner wrote: post #7

USA Today has the best coverage of this I’ve seen. The NYT coverage of this is awful: https://www.nytimes.com/article/breonna-taylor-police.html A key fact is that the police shot Taylor after her boyfriend shot at the police, thinking they were intruders. While he was fully entitled to do that, the NYT doesn’t believe in gun rights so that’s a messy fact. To make the victim seem more sympathetic, the narrative under…

context: I am a super liberal hippy. I'm really left, like, crazy. I paused reading your comment at "instead you need to go down several" because I wanted to test my current knowledge of this incident: almost nothing, I know, hard to believe, given the claim at the start. (I've been under a lot of stress at work, it's OK, I'm fine, thanks for asking though :) ) So I read the article... Here is the first paragraph und…

[deleted]

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#42

Post by hkai »

newacct583 wrote: post #36
rayiner wrote: post #7

USA Today has the best coverage of this I’ve seen. The NYT coverage of this is awful: https://www.nytimes.com/article/breonna-taylor-police.html A key fact is that the police shot Taylor after her boyfriend shot at the police, thinking they were intruders. While he was fully entitled to do that, the NYT doesn’t believe in gun rights so that’s a messy fact. To make the victim seem more sympathetic, the narrative under…

> Were they not supposed to shoot back when Taylor’s boyfriend shot at them? How about: they should be held responsible for the preventable death of this woman in a situation they directly and deliberately created? Is that not the problem? I don't think anyone is demanding a first degree murder conviction here. They didn't walk in with the intent to kill her. But they sure as shit did kill her, and it's all their fau…

I believe it's classical case where there is enough evidence for a wrongful death civil lawsuit (which will typically end with a 5-10 million dollars settlement), but there is not enough evidence to convict the officers (or the boyfriend) of a crime in a criminal case.

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#43

Post by jessaustin »

codezero wrote: post #16
rayiner wrote: post #7

USA Today has the best coverage of this I’ve seen. The NYT coverage of this is awful: https://www.nytimes.com/article/breonna-taylor-police.html A key fact is that the police shot Taylor after her boyfriend shot at the police, thinking they were intruders. While he was fully entitled to do that, the NYT doesn’t believe in gun rights so that’s a messy fact. To make the victim seem more sympathetic, the narrative under…

context: I am a super liberal hippy. I'm really left, like, crazy. I paused reading your comment at "instead you need to go down several" because I wanted to test my current knowledge of this incident: almost nothing, I know, hard to believe, given the claim at the start. (I've been under a lot of stress at work, it's OK, I'm fine, thanks for asking though :) ) So I read the article... Here is the first paragraph und…

I can imagine a scenario where I think many objective individuals would agree a no-knock warrant would make sense, so I can agree that they might be useful.

There is a danger in this tabula rasa sort of thinking. If we think only of imaginary scenarios and "in theory this is how it works", we're likely to ignore the very real consequences of this awful practice. Ms Taylor isn't the first person to die in this situation (innocent person killed entirely due to police incompetence); neither is she the thousandth. Lots of police die from no-knocks gone awry as well. There is no reason for any of this. If police know where the suspect is located, they may collect her or him at any time. When the suspect is a regular person with a regular job, why not make an arrest when she or he leaves the house to go to work in the morning? How about arresting the suspect at work, with no opportunity to hide evidence or resist?

The "nightmare scenario" that cynical police spin for credulous judges is that drugs might be flushed down a toilet. But drug prohibition is itself cynical and evil. Prohibition has only ever harmed American society. As we collectively wake from our long nightmare of drug enforcement, we must do away with all the insidious menaces that it has inspired. Our police will not be replaced overnight with "responsible" authoritarians, so we must not "imagine" we can safely allow them the tools of authoritarian tyranny, on the off chance that they might not be used in the way they have always been used. You write as if it's only because of "unprofessional" actions that Ms Taylor was killed. In fact, "unprofessionalism" is why we are blaming the police, but people like Ms Taylor are killed in no-knock raids even when every action is performed in adequately "professional" fashion. Occasionally no one dies senselessly, but these raids are always dangerous and unnecessary. That is a practical truth, which overrides "objective" theory.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/06/03/no-knock-...

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#44

Post by codezero »

jessaustin wrote: post #43
codezero wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

context: I am a super liberal hippy. I'm really left, like, crazy. I paused reading your comment at "instead you need to go down several" because I wanted to test my current knowledge of this incident: almost nothing, I know, hard to believe, given the claim at the start. (I've been under a lot of stress at work, it's OK, I'm fine, thanks for asking though :) ) So I read the article... Here is the first paragraph und…

I can imagine a scenario where I think many objective individuals would agree a no-knock warrant would make sense, so I can agree that they might be useful. There is a danger in this tabula rasa sort of thinking. If we think only of imaginary scenarios and "in theory this is how it works", we're likely to ignore the very real consequences of this awful practice. Ms Taylor isn't the first person to die in this situati…

Thanks for that comment, and while I didn't mean to make my comment come across as broadly accepting of "good willed police authority", it totally reads that way, and I can't say that I didn't mean that in my head!

I hope folks read your comment and follow the link, it's worth the read.

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#45

Post by [deleted] »

hkai wrote: post #42
newacct583 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Were they not supposed to shoot back when Taylor’s boyfriend shot at them? How about: they should be held responsible for the preventable death of this woman in a situation they directly and deliberately created? Is that not the problem? I don't think anyone is demanding a first degree murder conviction here. They didn't walk in with the intent to kill her. But they sure as shit did kill her, and it's all their fau…

I believe it's classical case where there is enough evidence for a wrongful death civil lawsuit (which will typically end with a 5-10 million dollars settlement), but there is not enough evidence to convict the officers (or the boyfriend) of a crime in a criminal case.

[deleted]

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#46

Post by cheschire »

_bxg1 wrote: post #26
rayiner wrote: post #7

USA Today has the best coverage of this I’ve seen. The NYT coverage of this is awful: https://www.nytimes.com/article/breonna-taylor-police.html A key fact is that the police shot Taylor after her boyfriend shot at the police, thinking they were intruders. While he was fully entitled to do that, the NYT doesn’t believe in gun rights so that’s a messy fact. To make the victim seem more sympathetic, the narrative under…

It makes me so upset how distorted all media coverage has been of all sides of this overall topic, from the start. Even if, with the new information you provided, the basic conclusion is the same - "police overreach, especially when it comes to black people" - the details remain extremely important not just for the integrity of that conclusion, but even more so when it comes to forming opinions about where to assign…

It’s distorted due to the same 2 or 3 families owning all of the news sources you’re reading, and using those to push political agendas. Even the parent post points out the distortion field working overtime on this article.

We rail against twitter or Facebook when they push politics and don’t act like a nonpartisan medium of transmission, but we’ve allowed our news to become exactly that.

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#47

Post by hkai »

lukifer wrote: post #23
hkai wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also hate that there seems to be a point of view that the US police and justice system is the worst in the world. I can attest that in most of the other countries of the world, you can't point a gun at the police and get away with it. Most importantly, you can't even talk about this case in the media, you can't sue the government, you can't hire a lawyer to fight against the government, your family will be threaten…

The US leads the world in prison population, compared to other democracies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_in... Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that I don't live in China. But it's pretty embarrassing for the richest and most powerful country in the world (allegedly bearing the mantle of freedom and democracy and Enlightenment values), to have to compare ourselves to totalitarian dictatorship…

As for your second point, I've seen an article on CNN the other day that says US kills twice as many people (per 1M arrests) than Australia.

It seems like a lot, but then consider that only 5% of people killed by police in the US were unarmed. The other 95% were armed, and most of those cases seem to be actual criminals rather than ordinary people like Breonna Taylor's boyfriend.

I'm with you on the American police being quite distinct from other police forces, and there's a lot of criticism to be made about them - like failure to keep proper statistics about police killings - but I think it's also fair to consider the circumstances that they work in.

As for your first point, many of the things can be true at the same time: US puts too many people into jails, there is too much crime in the US, and there are ways to obtain justice that are not available in most other countries (mass media, social media, courts).

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#48

Post by txcwpalpha »

mchusma wrote: post #6
newacct583 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Louisville PD and the FBI have both announced investigations and the officers involved are on paid leave. Historically, that hasn't generally produced much in the way of prosecutions. Maybe in the current climate things will be different.

The concept of paid leave has always puzzled me. This would be my choice of punishment if I am ever given a choice.

Paid leave isn't meant to be a punishment. There is some expectation that police officers will inherently be involved in controversial activities that will require further investigation, some of which may legitimately reveal that the cop did nothing wrong. Paid leave is supposed to be a compromise to remove cops from active duty during the investigation (in case they are guilty, we don't want them still roaming the street potentially doing bad things) but also not be a punishment (in case they aren't guilty).

The problem is that said investigations always seem to drag their feet, never going further than the paid leave, and never seem to actually get to the things that are meant to be a punishment (firing, arrest, etc).

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#49

Post by _y5hn »

zachrose wrote: post #25
rayiner wrote: post #7

USA Today has the best coverage of this I’ve seen. The NYT coverage of this is awful: https://www.nytimes.com/article/breonna-taylor-police.html A key fact is that the police shot Taylor after her boyfriend shot at the police, thinking they were intruders. While he was fully entitled to do that, the NYT doesn’t believe in gun rights so that’s a messy fact. To make the victim seem more sympathetic, the narrative under…

Not only was this a no-knock warrant in a country full of guns, but it was also executed by plainclothes police. Figure out how that’s supposed to work.

Imagine what may be done as long as grunts are just following orders.

Re: Breonna Taylor case: Louisville police nearly blank incident report

#50

Post by [deleted] »

hkai wrote: post #21
codezero wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

context: I am a super liberal hippy. I'm really left, like, crazy. I paused reading your comment at "instead you need to go down several" because I wanted to test my current knowledge of this incident: almost nothing, I know, hard to believe, given the claim at the start. (I've been under a lot of stress at work, it's OK, I'm fine, thanks for asking though :) ) So I read the article... Here is the first paragraph und…

Still, would you agree that the wording of the article tries to create an impression that the police fired first, and tries to downplay the fact that the boyfriend fired first? I do not disagree that the police was wrong to storm the place, but I think that given the well-known bias of NYT, they are trying to create more rage in the community by creating an impression that the police fired first.

[deleted]
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