Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

cra.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 31 posts

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#21

Post by cameldrv »

epistasis wrote: post #18
ReptileMan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True that - it shows brutal discrimination against all US citizens since foreigners get twice as many PhD's as all of US combined /s. Getting PHD is grueling low paid work with insane hours and very distant payoff. You become phd if you are idealist or have nothing better to do. It is possible that with all of diversity initiatives in big tech some potential phd get siphoned off after college - at least FAANG offer l…

That's not quite logical, because universities recruit heavily from international students. Many universities get much more funding from international students and use this to balance their books. What is the population of the world versus the population of the US?

Universities don't collect tuition for STEM PhDs -- you either do research or TA and get a tuition waiver and a stipend. It doesn't make any difference to them whether you're from the U.S. or overseas.

The real reason why the stats are so skewed towards foreigners is that the basic trade of the PhD is a lot more favorable if you don't have the alternative of just taking your bachelor's and going to work in the U.S.

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#23

Post by epistasis »

cameldrv wrote: post #21
epistasis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not quite logical, because universities recruit heavily from international students. Many universities get much more funding from international students and use this to balance their books. What is the population of the world versus the population of the US?

Universities don't collect tuition for STEM PhDs -- you either do research or TA and get a tuition waiver and a stipend. It doesn't make any difference to them whether you're from the U.S. or overseas. The real reason why the stats are so skewed towards foreigners is that the basic trade of the PhD is a lot more favorable if you don't have the alternative of just taking your bachelor's and going to work in the U.S.

Students may not pay for the tuition directly, as a matter of course, but all the universities I'm familiar with still collect tuition, from grants of the students' advisors, etc.

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#24

Post by [deleted] »

jungletime wrote: post #16

This is terrible. More black people are struck by lightning, than earn a CS Phd? "over the last 30 years (1989-2018) the U.S. has averaged 43 reported lightning fatalities per year. Only about 10% of people who are struck by lightning are killed, leaving 90% with various degrees of disability" https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-odds 13.2% of the US population is black. https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/tab…

[deleted]

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#25

Post by luminaobscura »

epistasis wrote: post #17
luminaobscura wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was all socioeconomics, you could see that in the data. You would control for parent's income and/or education, and you would see disparity disappear. I don't know what is the primary cause of disparities but i wouldn't assume it's all socioeconomics without evidence. Maybe different groups are valuing things differently? For example, an Indian may try to migrate to US using PHD as a gateway. So they may be mor…

My point is that socioeconomic differences resulting in different outcomes would be accepted as evidence of differences of opportunity. Because there's ample evidence of opportunities being different when growing up with fewer resources and more stresses. There's also ample evidence of racial discrimination resulting in differences of opportunity, in all fields of science. But people are quick to assume that it doesn…

If a group has "fewer resources and more stresses" "when growing up", we should try to address that directly.

This doesn't mean universities doesn't present equal opportunity.

The reason someone is not as capable may be just bad luck (bad parents etc.). But still, society should give positions to most capable ones.

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#26

Post by epistasis »

luminaobscura wrote: post #25
epistasis wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that socioeconomic differences resulting in different outcomes would be accepted as evidence of differences of opportunity. Because there's ample evidence of opportunities being different when growing up with fewer resources and more stresses. There's also ample evidence of racial discrimination resulting in differences of opportunity, in all fields of science. But people are quick to assume that it doesn…

If a group has "fewer resources and more stresses" "when growing up", we should try to address that directly. This doesn't mean universities doesn't present equal opportunity. The reason someone is not as capable may be just bad luck (bad parents etc.). But still, society should give positions to most capable ones.

I would point out that the original claim was "equal opportunity," not merely "universities presenting equal opportunity."

And I agree that we should fix the systemic racism that causes unequal opportunity starting from early in in life.

And if we are to believe the stories that come from Black people that attempt degrees in CS, or STEM in general, they also face significant differences in opportunity at the university level as well. I'm inclined to believe these stories, as everytime I have spent some time investigating they have been true.

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#28

Post by eesmith »

joeblow9999 wrote: post #22

using the word 'granted' is an odd phrasing here

How so? The terminology is centuries old.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_degree , which mentions things like "The Archbishop of Canterbury's right to grant degrees is derived from Peter's Pence Act of 1533 which empowered the Archbishop to grant dispensations previously granted by the Pope")

Or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_degree#History_of... - "The M.B. or Bachelor of Medicine was the first medical degree to be granted in the United States and Canada."

Or for a university, http://catalog.yale.edu/gsas/degree-granting-departments-pro... - "Degree-Granting Departments and Programs".

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#29

Post by cameldrv »

epistasis wrote: post #23
cameldrv wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities don't collect tuition for STEM PhDs -- you either do research or TA and get a tuition waiver and a stipend. It doesn't make any difference to them whether you're from the U.S. or overseas. The real reason why the stats are so skewed towards foreigners is that the basic trade of the PhD is a lot more favorable if you don't have the alternative of just taking your bachelor's and going to work in the U.S.

Students may not pay for the tuition directly, as a matter of course, but all the universities I'm familiar with still collect tuition, from grants of the students' advisors, etc.

On the undergrad side, the universities are making so much money from foreign students because they're charging them rack rate, whereas most U.S. students get some form of financial aid from the university. If you replaced a U.S. student with a foreign student, the university is going to have to tighten its belt.

For grad students, the tuition waiver costs the same amount regardless of where the student is from. Assuming you could fill the ranks with (presumably less qualified overall) U.S. students, and the same amount of grant money was available, it doesn't make any difference.

Re: In 2019, there were only 13 PhDs in CS granted to African Americans in the U.S. [pdf]

#30

Post by rowawey »

metalon wrote: post #7
_prototype_ wrote: post #4

And? In 2020 America there is ample opportunity for anyone to attempt a CS Phd. I am a proponent of equality of opportunity, not of outcome.

Groundbreaking idea there. Why has noone ever before thought of just giving everybody the same opportunities?

I think that's the right regarding merit-based application and selection, but certain groups need more mentoring, coaching, and supportive help that other groups already had. If someone only got in because of made-up points for winning a genetic lottery, that changes things in sinister ways that reinforces divisions and tarnishes their accomplishments.

Whenever there is subjective selection, be it schools or job applicants, I think names and addresses should be blinded to reduce bias. Bias needs to be recognized and averted fairly.

Passive-aggressively setting-up victim hierarchies to exclude all but a certain group is nothing more than hypocritical vindictiveness and demonstrates a fundamental lack of love and joy.

Post reply on HN