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AT&T has a fiberoptic splitter copying our data to NSA

eff.org

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Re: AT&T has a fiberoptic splitter copying our data to NSA

#21

Post by fingerprinter »

One thing I see people saying on here is that people should care....and I do...but I don't know _what_ to do with it!

Can someone show/tell me what I, an average person, can do? It feels a bit overwhelming and things like this point out how powerless we really are. I hope I'm wrong and there are things we can do...I just don't know what they are.

EDIT -

Asking two more specific questions:

1. What can we do technically to be safe?

2. What can we do to fight this? Petition Government? Support EFF? Other? Very much at a loss on #2

Re: AT&T has a fiberoptic splitter copying our data to NSA

#24

Post by Joakal »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #18
drivebyacct2 wrote: post #3

This is literally years-old information. I was aware of and hollering about this at people as a highschooler at debate and speech tournaments. Same thing then as now, no one cares, or those that do care don't care enough. Besides, who cares if you have nothing to hide. Right?

My father-in-law said exactly that to me. I wanted to reach out and smack him. Unfortunately, it isn't just a "mental copout", either. He is a very intelligent person who has arrived at a conclusion that the government oversight is OK because he has nothing to hide and (I have inferred) he is very afraid of those who do have something to hide.

Ask him if he or someone ever had an issue with someone with power in a company or government. Then ask what does the person have in arsenal when the people with power have a ton of information combined with power?

"Who watches the watchers" argument.

Re: AT&T has a fiberoptic splitter copying our data to NSA

#25

Post by jedsmith »

rbranson wrote: post #9

So? This isn't the equivalent to papers secured in your household, it's data sent over someone else's network. I'm not a huge fan, but saying it's the same as the government walking into your house and examining all your documents is ridiculous. Either way, call me when someone finds out they can decrypt and examine all the SSL traffic in real-time.

You're somewhat correct in principle (I agree with the major thesis) but largely off-base in the details. Maybe 20/80. Here's why:

Since this is a mirrored copy of their entire backbone, they're also catching traffic to and from peering points. In Mark Klein's deposition[1], he testifies:

Starting in February 2003, the "splitter cabinet" split (and diverted to the SG3 Secure Room) the light signals that contained the communications in transit to and from AT&T's Peering Links with the following Internet networks and Internet exchange points: ConXion, Verio, XO, Genuity, Qwest, PAIX, Allegiance, Abovenet, Global Crossing, C&W, UUNET, Level 3, Sprint, Telia, PSINet, and MAE-West.

Even if you're completely awesome and use SSL everything (like, say, Gmail), eventually that e-mail you sent is going to find its way from Google's servers to its final destination. That, with almost no exception, is plaintext. If the final destination's MX lives on AT&T's backbone and transits those peers (there might even be more possible scenarios I haven't thought of, such as AT&T selling transit), they are able to copy that e-mail in flight. All of the public information about this case is dated; I can't imagine that the NSA hasn't improved the facilities since.

This is a very specific example, but you get the idea. There are a lot more examples of why this sucks. It's not just your browsing they're catching; there's a shitload of traffic going into that room.

Aside: I'm really surprised this is coming up again. FISAAA mostly and grudgingly killed this story for me in what, 2008? 2009?

[1]: https://www.eff.org/files/filenode/att/Mark%20Klein%20Unreda...

Re: AT&T has a fiberoptic splitter copying our data to NSA

#26

Post by Joakal »

thematt wrote: post #17
kjksf wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In which other countries, exactly, does that happen? UK? Canada? Sweden?

Actually, yes...all those minus Sweden. The US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand all cooperate together. See the Ecehlon program: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_%28signals_intelligence...

Oddly enough, I hear rumours that it's a spy program on businesses, not people.

Re: AT&T has a fiberoptic splitter copying our data to NSA

#27

Post by hammock »

getsat wrote: post #12
zmblum wrote: post #2

What about the following paragraph is not clear? "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and Warrants shall not be issued, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Am I missing something? Of cour…

The authors of the Federalist Papers were against a specific enumeration of rights because they feared that those would become the only rights that citizens had. They now seem prescient in retrospect.

The Bill of Rights was horrible for America. It turned the Constitution from something where the people tells the government what it can and can't do, into something where the government tells people what bones they get thrown.

Re: AT&T has a fiberoptic splitter copying our data to NSA

#28

Post by SoftwareMaven »

Joakal wrote: post #24
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My father-in-law said exactly that to me. I wanted to reach out and smack him. Unfortunately, it isn't just a "mental copout", either. He is a very intelligent person who has arrived at a conclusion that the government oversight is OK because he has nothing to hide and (I have inferred) he is very afraid of those who do have something to hide.

Ask him if he or someone ever had an issue with someone with power in a company or government. Then ask what does the person have in arsenal when the people with power have a ton of information combined with power? "Who watches the watchers" argument.

Unfortunately, fear of the "bad guys" out-weighs his fears of the government, and I suspect that is likely to be the case for most people.

After all, they have nothing to hide...

Re: AT&T has a fiberoptic splitter copying our data to NSA

#29

Post by cgranade »

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #3

This is literally years-old information. I was aware of and hollering about this at people as a highschooler at debate and speech tournaments. Same thing then as now, no one cares, or those that do care don't care enough. Besides, who cares if you have nothing to hide. Right?

It's newly relevant with the AT&T/T-Mo buyout. Do we really want that much more traffic going straight to the NSA?

Re: AT&T has a fiberoptic splitter copying our data to NSA

#30

Post by fugue88 »

fingerprinter wrote: post #21

One thing I see people saying on here is that people should care....and I do...but I don't know _what_ to do with it! Can someone show/tell me what I, an average person, can do? It feels a bit overwhelming and things like this point out how powerless we really are. I hope I'm wrong and there are things we can do...I just don't know what they are. EDIT - Asking two more specific questions: 1. What can we do technicall…

We could use GPG for normal e-mail correspondence. But I really don't know if this would do anything more than delay any problems.

In a similar vein, I've deleted all the trusted root CA certs from my computer, and am now marking individual certs trusted as I hit them. Not fail-safe, but safer, I think.

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