Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people • Hacker News Board

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#401

Post by Sodman » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 10:32 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #362

squeaky-clean wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-manager I'd like to add it also normalizes healthy work hours to all the employees. I've worked places where one or two devs outpaced everyone else by a fair margin because of the hours they put in. They're usually very skilled developers, but they're also putting in double the hours of anyone else. Management of course always praises their output and calls them "rockstars" or something, while ignoring the f…

At the same time if they're willing to do 60 hours a week of work ( not if it takes them 60 hours to do 40 hours worth of work) they should probably be pointed out positively in the team meeting for putting the effort in, and privately told that it's probably not maintainable in the long term, and if they need to work that much to meet their objectives they have too much work. But I don't see anything wrong with prai…

As someone with a tendency to accidentally work 60 hour weeks sometimes because I genuinely enjoy the work, I think you have to balance any praise with very clear expectations for the rest of the team. Something like "40 hour weeks are meant to be the norm and while heroism is appreciated, it is not sustainable".

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#402

Post by m463 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 10:48 PM UTC

subhro wrote: post #5

I am really surprised one has to write a blog post about this. I am not a manager, but here is a question for managers, have you or anyone you know, joked about firing someone? In my opinion, that would be incredibly cruel and stupid.

I recall the game of thrones episode where this guy is telling a really old and well-known joke, and when he gets to the punchline, basically everybody in the room can't help but blurt it out before he can.

Or if you're in line and the cashier can't ring up your stuff for some technical reason, and you blurt out "well, I guess it must be free, huh?" But they have heard that one ever single day since they started.

Even I, paragon of ...uh... stuff... I once cracked a joke in the TSA line.

I would just imagine that most of this is human nature and I expect graduating to a higher level of power and responsibility has the same sort of well-traveled detours.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#403

Post by bloodorange » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 10:50 PM UTC

mark-r wrote: post #387

How about "You're lucky I'm a nice guy, someone else might consider that a firing offense." Does that cross the line?

That statement still implies something like "a not-so-improbable interpretation of that event might mean you will be fired".

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#404

Post by mrfredward » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 10:59 PM UTC

pvg wrote: post #381

whatok wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who has been fired for 'one off remarks'? Google "comedians fired social media" or "comedians fired old material". If not one-off remarks then a tiny percentage of overall material. > Older work getting re-evaluated, viewed from a different angle, etc, is more or less how culture works. I have no problem with anyone taking a nuanced look through an entire piece while also considering the time and place when it was…

So people aren't getting fired for 'one off remarks'. It's hard to really evaluate your claim that seemingly normal changes in cultural and social norms are some dreadful modern scourge if you can't really produce evidence it actually exists and is harming anyone. "I don't like some stuff I see on Twitter" is a problem more or less everyone experiences, it's probably not some important social ill.

James Gunn, director of "Guardians of the Galaxy" is the first person to come to mind for me. He's not a stand-up comedian per say, but humor was undoubtedly part of his job and he got fired for some very poor jokes he made on twitter a decade prior.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#405

Post by quadrifoliate » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 11:07 PM UTC

esotericn wrote: post #166

quadrifoliate wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I blame it on the fact that the tech culture starts in HS or College and then takes a worker straight into the industry; HS coder -> University -> jr coder role -> startup As a counter to this, I have seen multiple managers make jokes like this and they all came from nontechnical backgrounds and had 20+ years of experience. I literally had a (nontechnical) manager say in a supposedly joking manner once about going…

> One (unproven) hypothesis I have is that it's possible that people who went to college and had their first decade's worth of jobs in a comfortable economic climate are more comfortable making these kind of jokes than others who were not so fortunate. It's probably both that and how financially secure they are in general, whether that be via grunt work, inheritance, safety net, whatever. I spent the first 5 years of…

> ...and how financially secure they are in general, whether that be via grunt work, inheritance, safety net, whatever.

True. Privilege, and assumptions of “But of course you can find another job” probably play a huge part too. I've never had a manager belonging to an underrepresented community in tech, but I imagine they would be far less likely to say something like that.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#406

Post by pvg » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 11:08 PM UTC

whatok wrote: post #385

pvg wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So people aren't getting fired for 'one off remarks'. It's hard to really evaluate your claim that seemingly normal changes in cultural and social norms are some dreadful modern scourge if you can't really produce evidence it actually exists and is harming anyone. "I don't like some stuff I see on Twitter" is a problem more or less everyone experiences, it's probably not some important social ill.

> The rules about comedy don't apply to professional comedians, because you know if they break them they're still trying to funny. This was the original notion that I was disagreeing with. If you can't think of a single comedian fired for social media posts or previous material then you really aren't educated on the topic that you are arguing about. Also, complete exaggerations like: > dreadful modern scourge > not s…

It's odd you are accusing me of 'complete exaggerations' - the evidence you offered for your position was that 'countless' people have been fired for 'one off remarks'. That would absolutely be a scourge, if it were true. But it isn't, and you've now said so yourself, if I'm reading you right.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#407

Post by pvg » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 11:10 PM UTC

mrfredward wrote: post #404

pvg wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So people aren't getting fired for 'one off remarks'. It's hard to really evaluate your claim that seemingly normal changes in cultural and social norms are some dreadful modern scourge if you can't really produce evidence it actually exists and is harming anyone. "I don't like some stuff I see on Twitter" is a problem more or less everyone experiences, it's probably not some important social ill.

James Gunn, director of "Guardians of the Galaxy" is the first person to come to mind for me. He's not a stand-up comedian per say, but humor was undoubtedly part of his job and he got fired for some very poor jokes he made on twitter a decade prior.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/15/business/media/james-gunn...

He got fired and rehired. Wasn't a comedian. Wasn't for 'one off remarks'. And the whole thing was a deliberate, targeted troll campaign. It's hardly an example of countless people being fired for one off remarks.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#408

Post by strikelaserclaw » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 11:11 PM UTC

Non24Throw wrote: post #143

Early in my career, a manager once had me repeat to him that I would be terminated if I failed to do X, like I was a 5-year-old. X was referring to a technical implementation detail that he had zero understanding of. He read something in a blog post I guess. My reaction was to act like it was a fun joke or something. But inside, I absolutely loathed him every second of every day until I quit, and now I take great sat…

I could think of no context where this would sound like a joke, him having you repeat that like a child just sounds emasculating.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#409

Post by ChuckMcM » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 11:15 PM UTC

kemiller2002 wrote: post #3

This is sound advice. You have a significant amount of control over people's lives as a manager, and that should be treated with a level of respect. You have no idea how people feel, and it is quite possible that someone you manage doesn't know where they stand with you. At times that is more than enough to cause them stress and even convince them to look elsewhere. Work is stressful enough, and you don't need to add…

It is sound advice and it is difficult if you're friends with people where you had an easy camaraderie before the promotion.

I have had this bite me a couple of times with people for whom I felt I knew really well and was really comfortable with joking about pretty much anything. Only to find out later that the joke was anything but.

The hard and fast rule has to be both don't joke about firing and don't talk to someone else's direct reports about the performance of their manager.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#410

Post by Thlom » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 11:21 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #362

squeaky-clean wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-manager I'd like to add it also normalizes healthy work hours to all the employees. I've worked places where one or two devs outpaced everyone else by a fair margin because of the hours they put in. They're usually very skilled developers, but they're also putting in double the hours of anyone else. Management of course always praises their output and calls them "rockstars" or something, while ignoring the f…

At the same time if they're willing to do 60 hours a week of work ( not if it takes them 60 hours to do 40 hours worth of work) they should probably be pointed out positively in the team meeting for putting the effort in, and privately told that it's probably not maintainable in the long term, and if they need to work that much to meet their objectives they have too much work. But I don't see anything wrong with prai…

So glad I live in a country with sane labor laws. We have mandated 4 weeks vacation, most places have 5 weeks. The law actually says that the employee is mandated to take 4 weeks vacation and the employer is mandated to make sure the employee takes their vacation. It's possible to "transfer" vacation days from one year to the next, but most people take their vacation every year. Looking forward to July off.