Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people • Hacker News Board

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#371

Post by fortyrod » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 8:19 PM UTC

A similar mistake is to include your reports in speculation about potential termination of yourself. Especially if they are "The Talent", and you are not so much. I had a non-technical manager (sales background, and probably not bad at it, actually) who somehow ended up in charge of a crack engineering team as part of a re-org. When things were going badly with upper-management, she'd go with "Our heads are all on the chopping block together! You'd better perform or else!" This happened several times. Meanwhile, we were all thinking "Nope. It's just your head on the chopping block, friend." She was gone in a year.

Edit: I should say that the "we" above was the senior engineers. There were some more junior team members who were quite terrified by this speech, until we explained to them how talent (usually) works.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#372

Post by jessaustin » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 8:25 PM UTC

kemiller2002 wrote: post #3

This is sound advice. You have a significant amount of control over people's lives as a manager, and that should be treated with a level of respect. You have no idea how people feel, and it is quite possible that someone you manage doesn't know where they stand with you. At times that is more than enough to cause them stress and even convince them to look elsewhere. Work is stressful enough, and you don't need to add…

Have the decency to look someone in the eye.

This is true even if you're not firing somebody. In my first "real" job, I didn't report directly to the guy who negotiated pay. Maybe that was a little weird, but it could have worked. Except, the way he would discuss raises was to wait until some afternoon I was really busy with actual work, and then sneak into my office and blurt "your-raise-this-year-is-$10-congratulations-it-was-good-to-talk-with-you-I'll-be-pretty-busy-for-the-next-few-weeks-ok-bye!" He was literally gone before I had the presence of mind to greet him. This is the same guy who would insist on all sorts of procedures if anyone (e.g. my manager's manager) wanted to meet with him. Geoff, wow, what a tool.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#373

Post by jessaustin » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 8:27 PM UTC

goatinaboat wrote: post #342

Kaze404 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. I recently had an honestly disastrous experience at a job because we tried to pretend that power dynamic doesn't exist. My boss (the CTO) considered me a friend and vice versa, but that made every work interaction so awkward (for me at least) because I could never tell whether we were talking as friends, teammates or employer-employee. I attribute this as both of us being incredibly young (lower 20…

I could never tell whether we were talking as friends, teammates or employer-employee There’s an old saying, if your boss if your friend, he’s either a bad boss or a bad friend.

It might work the other way too? Either a bad employee or a bad friend? Or maybe it would be both?

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#374

Post by monktastic1 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 8:28 PM UTC

DecoPerson wrote: post #66

I grew up believing having thick skin was really important. I took this to heart, and now nothing phases me (and I’ve been in a variety of nasty situations that confirmed this). I realize this is not the norm, but I wish it was. Avoiding trigger words and peoples’ sensitivities is frustrating and further complicates complex discussions. I’m not saying we should be robots. I still have feelings. If someone I love show…

(FYI, the word you're looking for is "fazes.")

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#375

Post by llimos » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 8:29 PM UTC

nyokodo wrote: post #366

llimos wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a manager do this to me once. In a situation where I knew for sure he was joking. I was top of the department, and it wasn't even in the context of having done anything wrong. He had just been given some new responsibilities, and I asked him what he was planning to change, and he said, totally jokingly, 'well, today is your last day.' And I knew 100% it was a joke, and I still felt a horrible sinking feeling fo…

I understand that sometimes the topic of a conversation can't be revealed beforehand. However, I wish more managers would give some kind of indication beforehand about how anxious one should be about it because for many people the worst-case scenario is the default presumption.

Totally agree, and I actually did do that! I started by saying, 'There is absolutely nothing to worry about, everything is totally fine' - but of course nothing worries people like being told there is nothing to worry about :)

I had a great relationship with my team and no-one held it against me, it's just that moment of emotional response that gives a shock until the rational mind kicks in.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#376

Post by whatok » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 8:33 PM UTC

pvg wrote: post #365

whatok wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The rules about comedy don't apply to professional comedians, because you know if they break them they're still trying to funny. I don't think this is true in the modern age. Countless non-established or up and coming comedians and adjacents have gotten fired for one-off remarks in old material or social media posts. If there's a constantly evolving list (which no one person on Earth is completely aware of in its e…

Who has been fired for 'one off remarks'? Older work getting re-evaluated, viewed from a different angle, etc, is more or less how culture works. Murphy or Seinfeld don't seem to be any worse for the wear at all.

> Who has been fired for 'one off remarks'?

Google "comedians fired social media" or "comedians fired old material". If not one-off remarks then a tiny percentage of overall material.

> Older work getting re-evaluated, viewed from a different angle, etc, is more or less how culture works.

I have no problem with anyone taking a nuanced look through an entire piece while also considering the time and place when it was published. What I do have a problem with is cherry-picking through an hour plus of material and branding an entire work "problematic" or worse for a handful of jokes that were mainstream funny at the time and clearly jokes; the whole point of the profession. Most of this is amplified by social media and its ability to share short, out of context clips of anything but unfortunately there are real consequences that arise from that.

> Murphy or Seinfeld don't seem to be any worse for the wear at all.

Both of those guys are some of the greatest to ever do it. They also both have a lot of money. They're well-insulated from the consequences that others may face for similar actions; whether they be too big to blacklist or not suffering the loss of income that may devastate others.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#377

Post by jessaustin » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 8:36 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #343

BuckRogers wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is why I want a union or professional organization. That level of nonsense needs a mechanism to resist with. How many lives and marriages, families suffered for political moves mostly for nothing by some lunatic.

I would rather live with the risk of a political firing than make it unnecessarily difficult to fire poor performers.

Is it possible you've been brainwashed? I've never worked at a job that was so important as to make firing so vital. Most corporations are littered with deadwood. If firing "poor performers" is of no importance, how could it be more important than my comfort at my job? In fact, pretty much the only jobs that remain unionized are the ones we all pretend are really extra super important, like police and teachers.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#378

Post by wpietri » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 8:41 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #343

BuckRogers wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is why I want a union or professional organization. That level of nonsense needs a mechanism to resist with. How many lives and marriages, families suffered for political moves mostly for nothing by some lunatic.

I would rather live with the risk of a political firing than make it unnecessarily difficult to fire poor performers.

Then maybe help unionize your workplace and advocate for that. Unions don't have to protect poor performers. They could just as well be stringent about them.

I think a lot of the impression people have of unions is from places with really hostile labor/manager relationships. Under those conditions, it's easy to treat the workplace as a zero-sum battleground. But especially in tech, where we have a culture of shared gain and literal shared ownership, it's possible for workers to advocate for things like improved efficiency.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#379

Post by petrocrat » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 8:42 PM UTC

kemiller2002 wrote: post #3

This is sound advice. You have a significant amount of control over people's lives as a manager, and that should be treated with a level of respect. You have no idea how people feel, and it is quite possible that someone you manage doesn't know where they stand with you. At times that is more than enough to cause them stress and even convince them to look elsewhere. Work is stressful enough, and you don't need to add…

I have definitely started a job search after a superior joked about us being "replaceable". It wasn't even directed at me particularly, but there was a chance it was in reference to either the departments performance in general or possibly financial constraints of the department. The risk analysis on that from an employee perspective is a no-brainer: start making contingency plans.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#380

Post by jodrellblank » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 8:49 PM UTC

Kronen wrote: post #162

jodrellblank wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is another example of the trend in the 21st Century, people commenting with a putdown to try and make a status grab at being superior.

I was not talking about me so your point makes no sense

You count yourself in the set of "people who are easily offended", and you still said that comment?

The comment where the only point seems to be to attach a derogatory label to a group of people?

No, I don't believe it. I think attaching a demeaning label to a group of people is a way of saying you consider yourself outside of, and better than, them. If not that, what else was the content of your comment?