Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people • Hacker News Board

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#321

Post by pavon » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:46 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #119

blowfish721 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At my current position it's quite usual for my manager to ask why I'm still at the office when it's 3:30PM on a friday. One of the reasons I'm still working where I am.

If I were manager I would not even imply that I’m time aware either way, unless there is an ongoing issue (someone staying too late often), (or someone who is not putting in an effort). Otherwise why even bring up your consciousness of time? It signals you’re tracking it one way or another. Edit: for addressing burnout, overwork, etc., for me personally I would start with bringing up the issue in team meetings. Do we…

Agreed. If I was at an environment where people were regularly nagged about working past 3:30, it would indirectly make me feel like I had to be an early bird, and was looked down on if I wasn't.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#322

Post by supratims » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:49 PM UTC

Almost every org I have worked for in the last 20 years - (across the globe) - I have heard this from atleast one senior management. In some way or form.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#323

Post by bob1029 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:51 PM UTC

I would stay away from the kinds of places where this conversation even needs to be had in the first place. This type of antagonizing behavior is unprofessional and unsuitable in any industry. This is the sort of thing you should have figured out by the time you got out of college if you were paying attention.

On HN, I would much rather see headlines regarding "How I improved the daily grind of my direct reports" rather than what is effectively "please dont set the office on fire, that is naughty".

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#324

Post by totaldex » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:52 PM UTC

khazhoux wrote: post #316

As an aside, I think it's best that whenever someone is promoted to manager, they then manage a different team, so that their previous peers are not suddenly their direct reports. It's better for everyone that way. The new manager doesn't have to struggle through authority issues with their previous teammates/friends, and the team isn't disadvantaged by having a new manager in whom they confided info they maybe would…

While this may fix the issue you pointed out, it gets rid of a crucial benefit of managing a team you're familiar with: context and trust.

By the time a manager gets promoted, they often have enough context to functional well at that level. They may have built a network within their organization, have seen the product or technology go through several iterations, and developed a good understanding of how their team members work. In turn, this makes them a better manager.

New managers have to work hard to gain these skills, and incur great cost in doing so.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#325

Post by vkou » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:58 PM UTC

mjayhn wrote: post #177

Non24Throw wrote: post #143

Early in my career, a manager once had me repeat to him that I would be terminated if I failed to do X, like I was a 5-year-old. X was referring to a technical implementation detail that he had zero understanding of. He read something in a blog post I guess. My reaction was to act like it was a fun joke or something. But inside, I absolutely loathed him every second of every day until I quit, and now I take great sat…

> To expand on the article’s point, I think the biggest thing young managers don’t understand is that people are going to be insincere to you as a basic showing of respect and a basic desire for career preservation. They’re going to smile and appear to enjoy you and laugh at your jokes and seem ok with everything, much moreso than they otherwise would. I know it's hard and it took me until my 30s with a long career b…

> There is a huge chance that you're not the only one with those feelings and there might be people newer to the team or career that are afraid of speaking up for things that they really truly disagree with, or just the people who get anxious with confrontation.

There's a huge chance that, if you are actually working in a toxic environment, complaining about it will result in blowback directly targeted at you.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#326

Post by protonimitate » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

_gfrc wrote: post #14

This is along the lines of "Ha, taking half the day off, are we?" when somebody leaves a little bit earlier than usual. It sounds like (just) a bad joke, but it has severe consequences for your working relationship. I get that it's tempting to make jokes when you start managing for your old team members. Just accept the fact that you've switched positions and that your relationship will change. It will only make it m…

> Just accept the fact that you've switched positions and that your relationship will change.

The key here, I think, is the relationship aspect. I've seen and had so many terrible managers that had no idea how to create and maintain relationships with their subordinates. Every person responds to leadership differently, and needs different things from their immediate managers. A lot of people get into a management position and immediately try to bend people to their will.

The best manager I ever had was very hands-off from a day-to-day perspective, but knew every single one of his direct reports and how to manage them individually. Some people needed more frequent check ins and a stricter set of deadlines and expectations. Others needed the space and freedom to set their own schedule and have bigger picture goals. His ability to organize and assign the expectations and needs of the business to work for the person (rather than the other way around) is something I've always admired and look for in management.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#327

Post by tonymet » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

I would generalize this as don't gossip or speak negatively about other team members.

When you talk to your staff, assume that whatever they hear about another dev, they are thinking about themselves. If you say "so and so is slow", they will possibly worry you think that about them.

There is room for getting feedback among members. Like "I noticed so and so had challenges shipping X on time, what do you think was the cause?" – this is subject-focused, impersonal and helps with growth

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#328

Post by rurp » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #306

CapriciousCptl wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of life is tactfully dealing with people who have power over you. It’s not very comfortable for anyone.

A lot of life is determined by the number of uncomfortable conversations you are willing to have, one way or the other.

I'd never really thought about this idea explicitly but it really does apply to an awful lot of situations. I can think of countless experiences that would have turned out very differently if I had or had not brought up a tough conversation. Thanks for the thoughtful comment.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#329

Post by vkou » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 7:01 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #152

gowld wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ignorance rather than (intentional) cruelty Yes, and that ignorance is a _privelege_ of power. Most employees don't think they can risk-free joke about firing their boss.

>Yes, and that ignorance is a _privelege_ of power. No it's not. There we go. My statement has as much evidentiary support as yours. Have you ever thought about the usefulness and evidentiary support of using this weird leftist nomenclature to reframe traditionally understood concepts? Like what value did you bring by reframing 'ignorance' as 'privilege' - but 'privilege' not in the sense of the dictionary definition…

Privilege isn't weird leftist nomenclature, it's a well-documented fact about how the world works. Some people receive less blow-back for their misbehavior than others, because of their position in society. Whether their misbehaviour is from ignorance or cruelty is irrelevant to this point:

More powerful[1] people are more insulated from the consequences of their ignorance.

The response to you did not contradict your statement. It added important context to it.

[1] Two people can have more, or less power, relative to eachother, depending on the social context they are in.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#330

Post by P-ala-din » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 7:03 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #267

P-ala-din wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so which one is wrong?

Neither is necessarily wrong, as they have a different universe of analysis.

the way I parsed the question made it seem that they are incompatible. hence why I asked. it's my bad because I didn't explain myself.

I understood the first sentence to be saying that the proportion of men experiencing "imposter's syndrome" is the equal to the proportion of woman experiencing it.

I understood The second sentence to say that a higher proportion of women experience it.

To my understanding, it's not possible for these two statements to be true at the same time. So one must be wrong.