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After 10 years in tech isolation, I’m now outsider to things I once had mastered

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Re: After 10 years in tech isolation, I’m now outsider to things I once had mastered

#61

Post by rswail »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #47
minikites wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>to an appropriate extent, punish. What's the overall goal of punishment? We know it's not a deterrent to crime. We know it doesn't help recidivism rates. The only remaining reason I can think of is spite/hate.

Or, a sense of justice. A powerful emotion in people. Who know how many more criminals there might be, if punishment was off the table? Recidivism doesn't count that. So there's that social pressure too. Its pretty easy to figure out 'why punishment', if you try.

Who knows how many fewer criminals there might be, if social safety nets, providing for people's basic needs of food, shelter, health care and education?

How do you cure homelessness? You provide homes.

How do you deal with mental and physical illness? You provide health care.

How do you give people are path forwards? You provide education.

All of these things are what our societies are for. To carry on about "law and order" and even the "rule of law" without also quoting the part about "promote the general welfare" is to completely miss the purpose.

Re: After 10 years in tech isolation, I’m now outsider to things I once had mastered

#62

Post by rfrey »

minikites wrote: post #44
JackFr wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and that really should be the only point for prisons (protect the public) That's not true. Our prisons should protect the public, rehabilitate prisoners in so far as they can, and, to an appropriate extent, punish. Some people are skittish about the idea of punsihment. But it's abhorrent to our sense of justice that one suffer no consequences after committing a crime. Now in general I think our prisons and sentenci…

>to an appropriate extent, punish. What's the overall goal of punishment? We know it's not a deterrent to crime. We know it doesn't help recidivism rates. The only remaining reason I can think of is spite/hate.

I think it's probably not a deterrent to some crimes, but a deterrent to others. Probably there are lots of people who don't shoplift, e.g., out of fear of the consequences of getting caught. (Obviously there are plenty who would not steal regardless; and plenty who steal anyway). Most studies I've seen on deterrence focus on the most serious crimes like murder and rape.

Re: After 10 years in tech isolation, I’m now outsider to things I once had mastered

#63

Post by rfrey »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #47
minikites wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>to an appropriate extent, punish. What's the overall goal of punishment? We know it's not a deterrent to crime. We know it doesn't help recidivism rates. The only remaining reason I can think of is spite/hate.

Or, a sense of justice. A powerful emotion in people. Who know how many more criminals there might be, if punishment was off the table? Recidivism doesn't count that. So there's that social pressure too. Its pretty easy to figure out 'why punishment', if you try.

It's pretty easy to figure out 'why we shouldn't focus on revenge', if you try.

edit: I may be guilty of not listening to what you're actually saying. If you're saying there is something in the core of people that is delighted by revenge, therefore the current system, I agree. If you are saying that justifies a focus on punishment, I disagree.

Re: After 10 years in tech isolation, I’m now outsider to things I once had mastered

#64

Post by annoyingnoob »

bmn__ wrote: post #25
tasogare wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SecureBoot.

I think it's something else. One cannot simply shut down a Windows 8+ computer any more in order to access the boot device priority. There is a menu entry for shut down, but it's mislabelled and instead it will hibernate. This is very perplexing if one is used to how it was done before. The real working procedure is orders of magnitude more complicated and documented at https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/5831-boot-u…

My experience is that there is an 'Advanced BIOS Options' dialog where I select 'Turn off your PC'. Then I can go into the BIOS and change the UEFI/SecureBoot options. One can usually enable 'Legacy Boot' for BIOS boot OSs. Certainly frustrating the first time.

Re: After 10 years in tech isolation, I’m now outsider to things I once had mastered

#65

Post by wpietri »

This is a decent account of how much has changed, and he conveys the sense of alienation well. But what strikes me is that he talks about the whole thing like something that unaccountably happened to him. He didn't install botnets; he was arrested for installing botnets. Botnets that he somehow sees as part of the "true spirit of hacking", from the long-lost innocent age of 2009, when pure curiosity was the only motive. In reality, the botnets of the time were a) industrial-scale commandeering of other people's gear, and b) widely used for spam, DDOSing, and crime. [1]

I am perfectly willing to believe that his sentence was egregious, as federal prosecution is often more about a prosecutorial win than any real sense of justice. But given that he still seems unable to take responsibility for his choices, I could also be persuaded that having him away from a computer for a decade was perhaps on net the best thing for society.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botnet#Historical_list_of_botn...

Re: After 10 years in tech isolation, I’m now outsider to things I once had mastered

#66

Post by rootusrootus »

buboard wrote: post #51

The story seems off (temporally) for someone who got incarcerated circa 2010. Nothing very interesting has happened to technology since then.

That is what I was thinking, too. Hell, we had iPhones well before 2010. There hasn't been any kind of tectonic shift in technology since 2010, just mild evolution. Outside of a few specific areas (web frameworks, anyone?), skills from 2010 should still be very applicable today.

Now, if the author was arguing that it's a mindfuck to be incarcerated for 10 years and it makes him feel out of place, and his mindset is no longer really tuned towards technology, that I could totally believe. Just going to boot camp for a couple months does the same thing, takes a few days to reattach to 'normal' after that. 10 years in jail would take a bit longer to adjust from, no doubt.

Re: After 10 years in tech isolation, I’m now outsider to things I once had mastered

#68

Post by JackFr »

designdesign wrote: post #41
JackFr wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and that really should be the only point for prisons (protect the public) That's not true. Our prisons should protect the public, rehabilitate prisoners in so far as they can, and, to an appropriate extent, punish. Some people are skittish about the idea of punsihment. But it's abhorrent to our sense of justice that one suffer no consequences after committing a crime. Now in general I think our prisons and sentenci…

I've suffered some significant injustice at the hands of another, and for what it's worth their punishment has provided nothing for me. My experience has completely reversed my thinking about the way criminals are treated. Punishment compounds loss and has provided nothing to me or society. If prison could effectively protect society while providing rehabilitation I don't think any specific punishment would be necess…

> and for what it's worth their punishment has provided nothing for me.

That is why it is "The people vs. ..." and not "designdesign vs. ..."

> Punishment compounds loss and has provided nothing to me or society.

I think you need to convince society of that, rather than speaking for them.

I look at a guy like Bernie Madoff, who poses no threat to the public now and is probably not likely to be rehabilitated in any traditional sense. But is simply offends for him to live out the rest of his live having hurt so many without some kind of punishment.

Re: After 10 years in tech isolation, I’m now outsider to things I once had mastered

#69

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

crazypython wrote: post #36
save_ferris wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my observations of the American public, people generally seem to be fine with the extreme sentences and punishment that the system doles out. We’re completely apathetic towards most criminals (usually unless they happen to be rich & white), without understanding the circumstances that created their situation. Take the Crystal Mason case. She’s a Texas woman of color who voted illegally in the 2016 election and got…

> Now, not knowing what you’re doing is a crime isn’t a legally sound defense argument, but it does raise serious questions about how we view punishment and those we deem should be punished. Isn't it a Mens Rea defense?

It could be, but in order to sign a provisional ballot you have to sign a form that tells you you can't vote as a convicted felon. So even if she honestly didn't read the form (which wouldn't surprise me!) it severely undercuts her argument.

Re: After 10 years in tech isolation, I’m now outsider to things I once had mastered

#70

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

rswail wrote: post #61
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, a sense of justice. A powerful emotion in people. Who know how many more criminals there might be, if punishment was off the table? Recidivism doesn't count that. So there's that social pressure too. Its pretty easy to figure out 'why punishment', if you try.

Who knows how many fewer criminals there might be, if social safety nets, providing for people's basic needs of food, shelter, health care and education? How do you cure homelessness? You provide homes. How do you deal with mental and physical illness? You provide health care. How do you give people are path forwards? You provide education. All of these things are what our societies are for . To carry on about "law a…

We should certainly provide all of those things. But even homeless people, ill people, people with no direction in life can and should avoid committing crimes.
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