Live data from Hacker News

Way to keep your cool running a Raspberry Pi 4 (2019)

jeffgeerling.com

61–70 of 97 posts

Re: Way to keep your cool running a Raspberry Pi 4 (2019)

#61
post #14

The flirc case is a giant heat capacitor, not a heat sink. Notice that it has the only temperature curve where the temperature does not go back to baseline after the stress test. It needs a lot longer to get to equilibrium, and the final temperature is almost certainly hotter than what's shown on the graph.

I own one. To some extent you're right. My pi runs mpd and pi-hole at all times and under that relatively low load, the case is constantly warm to the touch. But it has enough surface area that I've never been worried about overheating. Refer to TFA -- a tiny little heat sink on the cpu was all that was need to keep from throttling.

I don't have the hardware to give a proper surface temp reading. I can measure the pi's reported temperature / test for throttling under extended load later, but for now: I stuck an "instant"-read thermometer intended for cooking into one of the usb ports, which was the hottest place I could find on the case. It measures 36.1°, compared to an ambient temp of 23.4°.

Re: Way to keep your cool running a Raspberry Pi 4 (2019)

#62
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who uses pis and MCUs, I don’t find anything that relies on a micro sd card to be reliable.

You can USB or network boot a Pi. Also in my experience over 9 years: just don't use Sandisk cards and you're fine. Samsung (Pro|Evo) branded cards have worked for me.

Officially there is no support for USB boot on Pi 4 yet.

The current supported solution is boot from read only file system on SD card, overlay file system with writes to the USB drive.

The foundation plan to add support back but for now only supported on Pi 3 and earlier.

Re: Way to keep your cool running a Raspberry Pi 4 (2019)

#63
post #30

Anyone has links to similar articles with regards to either - SD card reliability - techniques for reliably using what we have ? Given that people are using these for all kinds of stuff there must be some advanced techniques being used (or some basic I have missed).

Regarding microSD card reliability, one option would be to simply forego the microSD card completely and boot the Raspberry Pi 4 via an SSD connected to one of the Raspberry Pi’s USB 3.0 ports. I was originally going to recommend checking out this¹ article for instructions on how to do it. However, much of the instructions are no longer valid (as of two weeks ago!) since they assume that the Raspberry Pi 4 doesn’t na…

Ah, just saw that Jeff Geerling (the author of the linked article in this HN post) also has an article about booting the Raspberry Pi 4 from an SSD located here¹ (HN thread here²).

――――――

¹ — https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2020/im-booting-my-raspber...

² — https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23471729

Re: Way to keep your cool running a Raspberry Pi 4 (2019)

#64
post #58
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many problems with SD cards are actually rooted in power issues (bad power source or usb device that eats power). Ever since I took proper measures to ensure stable enough power I've had no issue (Pi 3B here)

> Many problems with SD cards are actually rooted in power issues Does anyone have any info on this that's more substantial than hearsay? Experiments, measurements or at least a more technical explanation than "bad power source"? I'm persistently hearing this story that power supply quality affects SD card life. As an electrical engineer, and given what I know about R. Pi design, I fail to see how an SD card could ge…

> I'm persistently hearing this story that power supply quality affects SD card life

Not SD card life indeed (in my case at least), merely IO failing, hosing the filesystem long term because of b0rked writes. The SD card is fine, it's just the data that eventually becomes inconsistent garbage.

I noticed the power LED showed the undervoltage behaviour, measured the power output which indeed showed the voltage not being stable on power spikes, so bought a better power supply, problem gone. Got the same kind of issue with greedy USB devices, so either went the powered hub route or used self-powered hard disks.

Re: Way to keep your cool running a Raspberry Pi 4 (2019)

#65
post #62
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can USB or network boot a Pi. Also in my experience over 9 years: just don't use Sandisk cards and you're fine. Samsung (Pro|Evo) branded cards have worked for me.

Officially there is no support for USB boot on Pi 4 yet. The current supported solution is boot from read only file system on SD card, overlay file system with writes to the USB drive. The foundation plan to add support back but for now only supported on Pi 3 and earlier.

You don't need to use an overlay filesystem (didn't know that was even a supported solution), you can move the rootfs to the usb device and point to it. See https://gist.github.com/lucabelluccini/9a11c48dcf1d627bbcbd8...

Re: Way to keep your cool running a Raspberry Pi 4 (2019)

#66

Thermal engineer here. There absolutely no need to use fan cooling, humongous heatsinks or harebrained temperature controller schemes to cool the raspberry pi 4. All that is needed is a small heatsink to slightly decrease the thermal resistance to ambient air, to stay below the thermal throttling threshold. Anything more complicated than that is a pointless exercise in pointlessness.

This is basically an appeal to authority. You haven't explained what property of the Raspberry Pi 4 means that a tiny heatsink is sufficient. Why can't I just replace the words "raspberry pi 4" with anything else and conclude that I never need fans or large heatsinks?

Because you can see in the graphs that the bare pi doesn’t get that hot. If you allow just a bit more heat to escape you push the graph down to where the peak sits just below the throttling point.

For home/hobby use this doesn’t matter too much but you typically want to run as hot as allowable. It’s a win-win since small heat sinks are cheap and don’t have any moving parts.

Re: Way to keep your cool running a Raspberry Pi 4 (2019)

#67

Anyone has links to similar articles with regards to either - SD card reliability - techniques for reliably using what we have ? Given that people are using these for all kinds of stuff there must be some advanced techniques being used (or some basic I have missed).

A good approach used in industrial/embedded applications: use a read-only root volume. If you don't write to your SD, you don't wear it out and have no risk of file system corruption either. It's quite a lot of work though, since most packages assume they're installed on a writeable file system.

Debian wiki has a (pretty bad and outdated) page on the subject https://wiki.debian.org/ReadonlyRoot#Enable_readonly_root

Re: Way to keep your cool running a Raspberry Pi 4 (2019)

#68
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can USB or network boot a Pi. Also in my experience over 9 years: just don't use Sandisk cards and you're fine. Samsung (Pro|Evo) branded cards have worked for me.

Network boot adds even more points of failure. USB boot is very attractive, but also very new. I’ll play around with it once it’s out of beta and the setup procedure is established. I use Samsung Evo cards and haven’t had an issue with them either. My problem is one of confidence. I have no data to suggest that these cards won’t just hard fail at some point in the next five years. Simply doing better than their compe…

All of the dead cards, if I open my drawer where I store them marked with a black cross-mark, are samsung evo cards. All my Sandisk Ultras (the real ones verified on Sandisk's chinese website) are still running fine after ~3-4 years of usage.

Anyway, Samsung Evos didn't hard fail for me. They just stopped executing writes (without reporting any errors). So your system seems to work (for a while), but after reboot it's back to where it was previously. It's a pretty stupid way to handle end-of-life condition for the card. I wish samsung decided to report write failures instead of simply ignoring the writes and reporting success.

Re: Way to keep your cool running a Raspberry Pi 4 (2019)

#69
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who uses pis and MCUs, I don’t find anything that relies on a micro sd card to be reliable.

You can USB or network boot a Pi. Also in my experience over 9 years: just don't use Sandisk cards and you're fine. Samsung (Pro|Evo) branded cards have worked for me.

Same, have some units that have been running nonstop for the past 5 years without having to touch them at all, using Evo cards. Also, I don’t think I mounted var/logs as a tmpfs.

Re: Way to keep your cool running a Raspberry Pi 4 (2019)

#70
post #62
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can USB or network boot a Pi. Also in my experience over 9 years: just don't use Sandisk cards and you're fine. Samsung (Pro|Evo) branded cards have worked for me.

Officially there is no support for USB boot on Pi 4 yet. The current supported solution is boot from read only file system on SD card, overlay file system with writes to the USB drive. The foundation plan to add support back but for now only supported on Pi 3 and earlier.

There is post that at least describes in detail how to enable this beta feature: https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2020/im-booting-my-raspber...
Post reply on HN