Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software • Hacker News Board

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#91

Post by fsckboy » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 9:46 AM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #79

Don't take this so much as about ideology, than as a mode of pedagogical thought. Free software is decomposable to first principles, and it makes perfect sense to use it in a CS class. If this was some other domain like surgery or structural engineering, using free software would add no value to the process (since the domains are already so deep that the students anyway treat all software as black boxes since their o…

if one were teaching medicine in a third world context, free software would offer many benefits to their clinical practice of medicine.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#92

Post by kragen » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 9:48 AM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #86

kragen wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free software is a matter of freedom, not price. But your comment contradicts itself. Your posited opposition between "what is best for the students" and "what is best to support some ideology" is without foundation — different ideologies differ precisely in that they make different claims about what is best for people, such as students. Whatever set of claims you endorse about "what is best for the students" constit…

I found your response, regardless of the stance, absolutely rude. It’s important to understand and try to find why that person is thinking this way than to shut them down in the manner you have, again with the same subjective ideology that the parent is commenting on.

> It’s important to understand and try to find why that person is thinking this way

Yeah? Try it, then.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#93

Post by craigsmansion » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 9:50 AM UTC

I think one of the nicer points to take away here is that prof. Sussman worked around remote teaching problems not by getting bogged down in meetings, but by calling a friendly admin and by himself installing a piece of free software on a computer he had lying around in his lab.

Free Software gives you back the agency to solve your problems in any way you see fit(be they hacks or not). It doesn't leave you helpless and dependent on the goodwill of third parties.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#94

Post by systemvoltage » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 9:56 AM UTC

kragen wrote: post #92

systemvoltage wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found your response, regardless of the stance, absolutely rude. It’s important to understand and try to find why that person is thinking this way than to shut them down in the manner you have, again with the same subjective ideology that the parent is commenting on.

> It’s important to understand and try to find why that person is thinking this way Yeah? Try it, then.

On HN, as the topic gets more divisive, please be nice and respectful.

Think about, the other person is not stupid to feel so passionate or strongly about something. There must beSome reason. Peel the layers until you get to the bottom of it. IMO, that’s so much more interesting to study than to ignore them.

Humanity gets better when we try to get out of a local optima. When we do don’t explore radical voices, and instead ignore them, we have no possible way to wiggle out of the uncanny valley. This refactoring if you will, of the human progress guided by logical reasoning, understanding of trade offs, gathering empirical data and studying behavior is paramount to a peaceful and harmonious society.

I urge you to please listen to others and ask them why they think that way. What are the pros and cons of a particular approach. Be honest and seek truth.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#95

Post by eddieoz » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 9:58 AM UTC

I used BigBlueButton between 2010-2013 for remote training classes on OZ Technology.

The infrastructure was built over AWS, automatically stopping the servers after all people leaving the channels. For starting it, it was monitoring the training schedule and 'opening/loading' the channel a few moments before the class start.

Cheap, open-source and reliable.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#96

Post by Hitton » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 10:00 AM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #81

What’s wrong with paying for a product or a service if it’s better for my students? Isn’t the teacher’s job to find the best available tools for their students and not engage in some kind of open source software usage high score? Edit: People are getting downvoted left and right. Why is this such a polarizing topic?

>What’s wrong with paying for a product or a service if it’s better for my students? Isn’t the teacher’s job to find the best available tools for their students

There is nothing wrong with paying for something, but what's better is relative.

Isn't it better to not give away students' private information? Isn't it also better for CS students to be able to look at the source code of tools they are using? Inevitably you will need to choose some metric with which you'll measure quality of a software, that metric is subjective. This guy chose one which valued aforementioned qualities more, if you teach your own class you are free to choose software which better fulfills your subjective criteria.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#97

Post by kragen » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 10:01 AM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #94

kragen wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s important to understand and try to find why that person is thinking this way Yeah? Try it, then.

On HN, as the topic gets more divisive, please be nice and respectful. Think about, the other person is not stupid to feel so passionate or strongly about something. There must beSome reason. Peel the layers until you get to the bottom of it. IMO, that’s so much more interesting to study than to ignore them. Humanity gets better when we try to get out of a local optima. When we do don’t explore radical voices, and in…

My criticism of our other interlocutor is certainly not that they are stupid. It is precisely that their rhetoric is dishonest, sabotaging precisely the dialectical process you claim to be concerned with fostering. If that's your concern, shouldn't you be criticizing them for their dishonest framing, not me?

Moreover, what they are attacking is that Sussman is enabling his students to study the software the course is run on, so they can understand its tradeoffs and guide human progress by logical reasoning, rather than treating the software as impenetrable black boxes they are forbidden to investigate and powerless to change; and they are attacking MIT's adherence to the ideology of academic freedom, one of the most effective ways to explore radical voices, get out of local optima, and seek truth.

I notice that you still haven't posted a response to their comment, whether criticizing their dishonesty as your stance implies you should, or attempting to understand their point of view as you are urging me to do. If you think it's important to find out why that person is thinking this way, then why are you making no effort to do so, instead attempting to influence me?

My best guess is that you're just feeding me a line of bullshit that you think will persuade me, rather than saying anything you sincerely believe, since your behavior in this thread is precisely the opposite of the behavior you are advocating.

Or, more briefly: "Yeah? Try it, then."

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#98

Post by woofie11 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 10:02 AM UTC

renewiltord wrote: post #61

pfortuny wrote: post #46

Great that his institution lets him run servers for his classrooms from “any” place. At my school, first thing: disconnect all your servers except for required lavoratory things. ...

I think it is no sheer coincidence that the following three things are simultaneously true: A. MIT is as renowned as it is B. MIT does this C. MIT has people like Gerald Sussman as Professors

... and MIT became famous for work during the AI Lab days.

... MIT is going down the tubes.

... And people like Jerry (correctly) say MIT would never hire someone like them today.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#99

Post by craigsmansion » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 10:04 AM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #81

What’s wrong with paying for a product or a service if it’s better for my students? Isn’t the teacher’s job to find the best available tools for their students and not engage in some kind of open source software usage high score? Edit: People are getting downvoted left and right. Why is this such a polarizing topic?

> Edit: People are getting downvoted left and right. Why is this such a polarizing topic?

Likely because there's only so many times someone wants to reply with "Free as in free market, not as in free lunch."

And it's not that much of a polarising topic, but if Gerald Jay Sussman, professor at MIT, co-writer of SICP, board-member of the FSF, writes about "Free Software", and multiple people start off with complaints or comments about "paying", even if there have been multiple posts and corrections in the commentary already, it becomes very hard to retain good faith or discern any value in the post.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#100

Post by woofie11 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 10:05 AM UTC

md5person wrote: post #32

logane wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sussman means free as in freedom, not free as in beer :) (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software )

> "Sussman means free as in freedom, not free as in beer :) (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software)" Sure, but conveniently enough, the software listed in the parent article [0] all happens to be "free as in beer". What examples of "free as in freedom, but we had to pay for it before we could use it" software was used during the course? [0] https://www.gnu.org/education/teaching-my-mit-classes-with-o...

Your question is missing the point, but to give an answer:

Sussman taught the first edX course, 6.002x. Agarwal took credit for it (since he shot the videos and was the face), but Sussman did the plurality of the work, followed by Terman, by Mitros, and then by Agarwal.

Open edX is free-as-in-beer but not free-as-in-price.