The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police • Hacker News Board

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

#111

Post by danaris » Tue, Jun 09, 2020, 10:48 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #105

danaris wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point isn't to save money. It's to force reform by taking away the current police department's money. (This is an excellent example of why the "defund" slogan is confusing; however, of the other suggestions I've seen in this thread, I haven't seen any that make clear the level of change that's needed.)

What do you expect to happen when you take away their ability to pay for reform? I can think of a few things that will require more money: better/longer training for officers, and doing more investigations into citizen complaints. That stuff isn't free. When you defund an organization and at the same time demand it does better, you create a siege mentality among the members of the organization. They will get worse, n…

At least in the cases where I've heard specifics, the intention is to essentially disband the existing police department and start a new one, that doesn't have the old bad police officers or the old union, protecting them from the consequences of their lawbreaking.

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

#112

Post by verdverm » Tue, Jun 09, 2020, 10:53 PM UTC

mkolodny wrote: post #92

leviathant wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If the goal is to prevent police brutality, it seems like it would be more effective to deal with the problem directly - punish police officers who use excessive force. Regulation without teeth is ineffective. This is another example of what people mean when they say the system is inherently flawed and needs to be disassembled and rebuilt from the ground up: https://twitter.com/michaelhayes/status/127005901385471182…

> Regulation without teeth is ineffective. Then create regulation with teeth. Create laws that make it clear what counts as excessive police force. Create a government body whose job is to investigate and prosecute officers charged with excessive force.

In the states, many of these laws are on a state by state basis. We could see something at the federal level, and then we have one more law that will be contended by someone. Even if a law where to be written, with more specifics, we still have interpretation in the judicial system which can take many years to become tested and understood enough.

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

#113

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 12:02 AM UTC

nickff wrote: post #48

voisin wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about “Deunionize Police”? Doesn’t have the same ring, but would solve many of the issues people are protesting about (accountability, etc).

The problem is that would lead to cognitive dissonance, as the people who want to defund the police also tend to be very pro-union.

[deleted]

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

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Post by lostmsu » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 12:49 AM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #85

JKCalhoun wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. Now imagine that the public have over 8 million (maybe as many as 15 million) semi-automatic "military-style" rifles. (These are the NRA's numbers, FWIW — I don't think anyone knows the number of AR-15s, etc. are in U.S. citizens possession.)

I'm not sure what relevance the number of civilian-owned rifles ("military-style" or otherwise) has to the daily life of a police officer. concealable weapons (mainly pistols) are of much greater concern when interacting with the public.

Haven't seen the actual numbers, but I would imagine many police encounters are actually home calls.

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

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Post by JKCalhoun » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 12:59 AM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #85

JKCalhoun wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. Now imagine that the public have over 8 million (maybe as many as 15 million) semi-automatic "military-style" rifles. (These are the NRA's numbers, FWIW — I don't think anyone knows the number of AR-15s, etc. are in U.S. citizens possession.)

I'm not sure what relevance the number of civilian-owned rifles ("military-style" or otherwise) has to the daily life of a police officer. concealable weapons (mainly pistols) are of much greater concern when interacting with the public.

Yes, I think semi-auto pistols (concealed or otherwise) are likely a bigger concern for police for things like traffic stops.

I can't seem to find the number of semi-automatic pistols, only the larger number of firearms (all types) — thought to be close to or over 300 Million in the U.S.

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

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Post by wdr1 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 2:13 AM UTC

eric_b wrote: post #24

I see a lot of people saying "Defund the police doesn't mean no police". Ok, fine. But it's a shitty slogan that, regardless of actual meaning, is doing more harm than good. Normal people don't get the nuance. To them it just sounds like the "defunders" want to get rid of all police. And normal people think that is a very fucking bad idea. Do you know what regular people do when they are worried about their safety, c…

I worry it's a shitty slogan that will undercut real change.

Many will think it's no police, hence no police brutality, only to learn it's really just a re-organization of the police. Potentially a minor one, as many (most?) haven't shared details.

Cynically, it seems an effort to take away attention from real reform, such as eliminating qualified immunity or banning police unions.

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

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Post by gremlinsinc » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 4:26 AM UTC

eric_b wrote: post #60

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read another comment elsewhere with which I totally agree. I think we're at a tipping point in the US where if the slogan was "End the War on Drugs" you're likely to get majority support, and ending the war on drugs would do more than any single thing to bring about social justice in the US. Contrast that with "defund the police", the goals of which are amorphous even from its supporters , and if you don't think ca…

Yes! "End the War on Drugs" is exactly the kind of thing that could get meaningful traction and has a relatively concrete set of goals.

How about end incarceration for non-violent offenses?

Drugs, Shop-lifting, DUI, Robbery (unarmed), Prostitution, Protesting, etc...

We have tech to monitor ppl wherever they go, we could easily monitor these people w/ ankle bracelets etc and make sure they're behaving. We could require them to go to therapy and figure out the root of why they do what they do, you know what you'd do w/ a child who's acting out and misbehaving....

Maybe we curtail a lot of issues.... Save prison for pedophiles, rapists, murderers, assaults, etc....

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

#118

Post by gremlinsinc » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 4:28 AM UTC

eric_b wrote: post #55

voisin wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about “Deunionize Police”? Doesn’t have the same ring, but would solve many of the issues people are protesting about (accountability, etc).

Personally I'd go with "Reform the Police" or "Police the Police". Or maybe "De-Militarize the Police" which is not the only goal but one with broader support.

Maybe let BLM pick and setup their own police inspectors and have some oversight over an agency that polices the police. Instead of D.A. handling cop cases it would be members of this agency (they'd have lawyers who handle prosecutions - their own D.A.). Could be on a national or state by state level.

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

#119

Post by gremlinsinc » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 4:30 AM UTC

nickff wrote: post #48

voisin wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about “Deunionize Police”? Doesn’t have the same ring, but would solve many of the issues people are protesting about (accountability, etc).

The problem is that would lead to cognitive dissonance, as the people who want to defund the police also tend to be very pro-union.

I lean libertarian socialist. Big unionist, and I say fuck police unions. End them all.

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

#120

Post by gremlinsinc » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 4:32 AM UTC

Fjolsvith wrote: post #87

voisin wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about “Deunionize Police”? Doesn’t have the same ring, but would solve many of the issues people are protesting about (accountability, etc).

Maybe we could reorganize the police as a private enforcement group that wouldn't answer to the courts or constitution? Sort of like the brownshirts before WWII. [1] Edit: Youtube took down a video of them back in 2019. [2] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung 2. https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/youtube-bans-anti-nazi-docum...

That sounds like it goes in the opposite direction, we need police to have MORE not LESS oversight and be under more scrutiny and actually get punished (probably 2-3x the sentence of a non-officer).