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The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

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Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

#61

Post by jonahrd »

mkolodny wrote: post #36

If the goal is to prevent police brutality, it seems like it would be more effective to deal with the problem directly - punish police officers who use excessive force. Derek Chauvin, the officer charged for murdering George Floyd, has had 18 previous complaints against him [0]. If police officers can get away with using excessive force, then they might think that it's acceptable behavior. Reducing the police force b…

The scope of what we consider "legitimate police activity" is too large and this call is to reduce that scope as well. A 20% reduction in police activity is not an unfortunate byproduct, it's the direct result that people are calling for.

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

#62

Post by adamsea »

eric_b wrote: post #24

I see a lot of people saying "Defund the police doesn't mean no police". Ok, fine. But it's a shitty slogan that, regardless of actual meaning, is doing more harm than good. Normal people don't get the nuance. To them it just sounds like the "defunders" want to get rid of all police. And normal people think that is a very fucking bad idea. Do you know what regular people do when they are worried about their safety, c…

I feel like the same quote-unquote “normal people” (I think it’s a dangerous term because it’s unquantifiable and can be used to justify anything) you describe here have also been passive contributors to the racial violence of police departments across the US for years now.

So I challenge your logic and your assumptions.

If anything the last two decades of American politics have shown that a highly-mobilized and engaged minority, if they have leverage over officials via money or votes, is able to shift policy _despite_ opposition from a numerical majority of people.

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

#63

Post by evilantnie »

eric_b wrote: post #24

I see a lot of people saying "Defund the police doesn't mean no police". Ok, fine. But it's a shitty slogan that, regardless of actual meaning, is doing more harm than good. Normal people don't get the nuance. To them it just sounds like the "defunders" want to get rid of all police. And normal people think that is a very fucking bad idea. Do you know what regular people do when they are worried about their safety, c…

Who are these normal people you're referring to?

Why is it a scary concept to them?

Why should the message be diluted to reduce normal people's fears?

It's explicitly demanding an alternative system to one that has for decades instilled fear of violence towards Black folks.

I support the slogan, and the weight behind it. The intention is to spark discomfort in normal people, change won't happen when normal people feel comfortable.

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

#64

Post by analog31 »

root_axis wrote: post #37
basch wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the unions have much more power than labor negotiations, including being able to decide what laws and policies apply to the police departments.

How is it that police unions can determine what laws apply to police departments? I've never heard of that, could you point me to where I could read up more on that?

A number of ways, for instance from what I read in the New York Times article a couple days ago. First is direct political activity -- anybody in city governance who crosses the union loses their seat in the next election.

Second, the union contract can effectively dictate how laws are enforced on the police, e.g., the what the disciplinary mechanism is like, so the laws become un-enforceable.

Third is through labor action such as work-to-rule.

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

#65

Post by leviathant »

mkolodny wrote: post #36

If the goal is to prevent police brutality, it seems like it would be more effective to deal with the problem directly - punish police officers who use excessive force. Derek Chauvin, the officer charged for murdering George Floyd, has had 18 previous complaints against him [0]. If police officers can get away with using excessive force, then they might think that it's acceptable behavior. Reducing the police force b…

>If the goal is to prevent police brutality, it seems like it would be more effective to deal with the problem directly - punish police officers who use excessive force.

Regulation without teeth is ineffective.

This is another example of what people mean when they say the system is inherently flawed and needs to be disassembled and rebuilt from the ground up: https://twitter.com/michaelhayes/status/1270059013854711821

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

#66

Post by twblalock »

nickff wrote: post #59
twblalock wrote: post #33

If most people realized that protesters mean "abolish" when they say "defund", the reaction would be a bit different (see https://newrepublic.com/article/158104/rush-redefine-defund-... ). When most people hear "defund the police" they assume it means cutting police budgets, and perhaps also involves repurposing money for social services. But reforming any organization generally takes more money, not less -- for exam…

Many police organizations have been violating rights and abusing people for decades; saying that they need more money before they fix their problem just astonishes me. Do you really think the populace will trust them to change? If someone's been violating your trust for an extended period of time, they need to earn it back before you give them anything they want.

How do you expect them to "earn it back" without investing more money to pay for better training and investigations of citizen complaints?

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

#67

Post by mensetmanusman »

root_axis wrote: post #25
trianglem wrote: post #12

I think the best thing for America would be to completely dissolve the police union. This single action should fix a lot of the issues.

Are unions really the problem? Why not raise the standards and the wages for police officers instead of dismantling labor power?

Police unions are different than others in that they are the only group allowed to impose violence on other citizens. No issue with dismantling unions if it is not found to be an optimal organizational solution to minimizing harm.

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

#68

Post by adamsea »

eric_b wrote: post #24

I see a lot of people saying "Defund the police doesn't mean no police". Ok, fine. But it's a shitty slogan that, regardless of actual meaning, is doing more harm than good. Normal people don't get the nuance. To them it just sounds like the "defunders" want to get rid of all police. And normal people think that is a very fucking bad idea. Do you know what regular people do when they are worried about their safety, c…

Also — you say the slogan is doing more harm than good. How do you know?

Based on your own judgement, based on talking with your friends, based reading articles in XYZ publication, based on “common sense”, based on what?

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

#69

Post by nickff »

twblalock wrote: post #66
nickff wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many police organizations have been violating rights and abusing people for decades; saying that they need more money before they fix their problem just astonishes me. Do you really think the populace will trust them to change? If someone's been violating your trust for an extended period of time, they need to earn it back before you give them anything they want.

How do you expect them to "earn it back" without investing more money to pay for better training and investigations of citizen complaints?

Well, I don't know if they can. The analogy that comes to mind is that of an long-term abusive spouse: When you threaten to leave, they say they'll change, they just need a little time and your help. Do you believe them?

Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police

#70

Post by adamsea »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #53
eric_b wrote: post #24

I see a lot of people saying "Defund the police doesn't mean no police". Ok, fine. But it's a shitty slogan that, regardless of actual meaning, is doing more harm than good. Normal people don't get the nuance. To them it just sounds like the "defunders" want to get rid of all police. And normal people think that is a very fucking bad idea. Do you know what regular people do when they are worried about their safety, c…

I read another comment elsewhere with which I totally agree. I think we're at a tipping point in the US where if the slogan was "End the War on Drugs" you're likely to get majority support, and ending the war on drugs would do more than any single thing to bring about social justice in the US. Contrast that with "defund the police", the goals of which are amorphous even from its supporters , and if you don't think ca…

That’s actually not true about convincing the majority.

A minority has had outsize political influence in the US for a decade or two now. Because of the electoral college and because of gerrymandering.

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