Progressives are notorious for clutching defeat from the jaws of victory. Why are not calling this "reform the police" or "police aren't social workers" or "invest in prevention instead of police". The are literally hundreds of things we can call it that the majority of Americans would get behind. I find it very frustrating because there is much better ways to deal with a variety of issues like homelessness, drug addiction, and even some traffic stops, but the slogan is going to keep that from happening.
The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police
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Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police
#52I think the best thing for America would be to completely dissolve the police union. This single action should fix a lot of the issues.
Are unions really the problem? Why not raise the standards and the wages for police officers instead of dismantling labor power?
Here's a great npr podcast - https://www.npr.org/2020/06/05/871298161/police-unions-and-p...
Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police
#53I see a lot of people saying "Defund the police doesn't mean no police". Ok, fine. But it's a shitty slogan that, regardless of actual meaning, is doing more harm than good. Normal people don't get the nuance. To them it just sounds like the "defunders" want to get rid of all police. And normal people think that is a very fucking bad idea. Do you know what regular people do when they are worried about their safety, c…
I read another comment elsewhere with which I totally agree. I think we're at a tipping point in the US where if the slogan was "End the War on Drugs" you're likely to get majority support, and ending the war on drugs would do more than any single thing to bring about social justice in the US.
Contrast that with "defund the police", the goals of which are amorphous even from its supporters, and if you don't think calls to defund the police are met with stares and questions like "are you insane" in any place besides mid-to-large urban areas in the US, you really need to pop your social bubble.
For better or for worse in a democracy you need to convince the majority (or near majority) of the population over to your side. The slogan "defund the police" is not the way to do it.
Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police
#54I see a lot of people saying "Defund the police doesn't mean no police". Ok, fine. But it's a shitty slogan that, regardless of actual meaning, is doing more harm than good. Normal people don't get the nuance. To them it just sounds like the "defunders" want to get rid of all police. And normal people think that is a very fucking bad idea. Do you know what regular people do when they are worried about their safety, c…
But I think it's healthy that actual defunding is on the table now. The police need to be accountable. It may be a solution to the police union problem. Defund, start over without the union.
Reforming an institution always costs more money, not less.
Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police
#55I see a lot of people saying "Defund the police doesn't mean no police". Ok, fine. But it's a shitty slogan that, regardless of actual meaning, is doing more harm than good. Normal people don't get the nuance. To them it just sounds like the "defunders" want to get rid of all police. And normal people think that is a very fucking bad idea. Do you know what regular people do when they are worried about their safety, c…
How about “Deunionize Police”? Doesn’t have the same ring, but would solve many of the issues people are protesting about (accountability, etc).
Personally I'd go with "Reform the Police" or "Police the Police". Or maybe "De-Militarize the Police" which is not the only goal but one with broader support.
Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police
#56I see a lot of people saying "Defund the police doesn't mean no police". Ok, fine. But it's a shitty slogan that, regardless of actual meaning, is doing more harm than good. Normal people don't get the nuance. To them it just sounds like the "defunders" want to get rid of all police. And normal people think that is a very fucking bad idea. Do you know what regular people do when they are worried about their safety, c…
I agree that to a lot of people, defund seems to imply abolish, which is not a great position. On the one hand, I think the word choice is somewhat purposeful, as it's designed to sound extreme and appeal to people who see the police as an extreme problem. On the other hand, it definitely lends itself to purposeful misrepresentation by opponents.
That said, I think given the popularity of the movement, the phrasing doesn't necessarily doom it. It's a popular enough phrase now that it's getting explanatory media coverage (I just saw the last John Oliver, where he explained that defunding the police doesn't mean abolishing them, and there's lots of other articles out there if you Google "defund the police"), and since the idea behind it is good, once people understand it I think there's a reasonable likelihood they get on board.
With all that in mind, I actually still struggle to come up with better phrasing that's both strong enough and also clearer in meaning. The obvious phrase would be "reform the police," but police reform has been talked about too much already and hasn't been effective as previously described, so that's got too much baggage to be good. "Fix the police" could be okay, but it's too general. "Redistribute the police budget to a wider range of services" doesn't exactly roll off the tongue. It's a tough one.
Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police
#57I see a lot of people saying "Defund the police doesn't mean no police". Ok, fine. But it's a shitty slogan that, regardless of actual meaning, is doing more harm than good. Normal people don't get the nuance. To them it just sounds like the "defunders" want to get rid of all police. And normal people think that is a very fucking bad idea. Do you know what regular people do when they are worried about their safety, c…
How about “Deunionize Police”? Doesn’t have the same ring, but would solve many of the issues people are protesting about (accountability, etc).
This is worrying to many on the left, since it implies that unions could be bad. The ideologically consistent viewpoint is that the very concept of policing itself is so evil that it taints even associated unions.
Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are unions really the problem? Why not raise the standards and the wages for police officers instead of dismantling labor power?
There's a reason most other labor unions don't want anything to do with cops joining. A police union is closer to a mafia family that protects its members instead of a traditional labor union.
I've heard the same line of argumentation used against all kinds of labor unions though. e.g. "teachers unions are failing our kids because they protect bad/apathetic/partisan teachers" or "auto unions are why American auto companies are failing since they protect workers who work 30 minutes a day and slack off the rest".
Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police
#59If most people realized that protesters mean "abolish" when they say "defund", the reaction would be a bit different (see https://newrepublic.com/article/158104/rush-redefine-defund-... ). When most people hear "defund the police" they assume it means cutting police budgets, and perhaps also involves repurposing money for social services. But reforming any organization generally takes more money, not less -- for exam…
Many police organizations have been violating rights and abusing people for decades; saying that they need more money before they fix their problem just astonishes me. Do you really think the populace will trust them to change?
If someone's been violating your trust for an extended period of time, they need to earn it back before you give them anything they want.
Re: The Cities Taking Up Calls to Defund the Police
#60I see a lot of people saying "Defund the police doesn't mean no police". Ok, fine. But it's a shitty slogan that, regardless of actual meaning, is doing more harm than good. Normal people don't get the nuance. To them it just sounds like the "defunders" want to get rid of all police. And normal people think that is a very fucking bad idea. Do you know what regular people do when they are worried about their safety, c…
I read another comment elsewhere with which I totally agree. I think we're at a tipping point in the US where if the slogan was "End the War on Drugs" you're likely to get majority support, and ending the war on drugs would do more than any single thing to bring about social justice in the US. Contrast that with "defund the police", the goals of which are amorphous even from its supporters , and if you don't think ca…
Yes! "End the War on Drugs" is exactly the kind of thing that could get meaningful traction and has a relatively concrete set of goals.