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Britain has gone two months without burning coal to generate power

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Re: Britain has gone two months without burning coal to generate power

#101

Bhutan is actually carbon-negative for a while but this is significant. A complete country going off coal. To compare this with one of the biggest contributors to pollution, India, has around 50% of electricity generated by coal. Of course, Britain's electricity consumption may not be comparable to India, or COVID has some effect on this. This certainly is the first step towards a better future

Britain's electricity consumption isn't comparable to India for many reasons - We use ~4 times as much per person but have only 5% the population.

1) We are geographically tiny by comparison 2) Our population is tiny by comparison 3) Our temperatures don't require active cooling in our homes (most of the time) though we do use electricity for heating 4) We are a developed economy which means for the most part highly energy intensive processes (aluminium and steel production) have moved offshore...to places like India.

However per capita we use 4,795kWh per year, India - 1,181kWh and the mix of sources definitely matters

For reference: United States 12,000, Iceland: 55,000, France: 6648

You can't however compare it like for like even amongst developed economies, Iceland uses a lot per capita but they are a cold (tiny population) country and heavy on renewables, France uses nearly 50% more than the UK but they built and operate a huge number of nuclear plants so electricity has been cheap enough for long enough that it's much more prevalent for heating.

If the western world wants to try and influence the energy usage in India and China et al then we need to get our consumption down while advancing the state of the art in renewables because can afford to do so exactly because saying "You need to not have the same living standards as us to save the planet while we use as much energy as we want" isn't a reasonable argument in the slightest.

The UK has done somewhat well there, it was within the last decade that our usage was >6000 so we've dropped 25% per capita so total energy usage has dropped while we've increased usage of renewables, we are almost uniquely suited for wind energy and in fact 7 of the 10 largest wind farms in the world are in the UK and the single largest is currently been off the coast of a town not 25 miles from where I am now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsea_Wind_Farm

The UK has committed to 50GW of Wind capacity by 2030 which is greater than our current energy consumption (though iiirc that's 50GW if every turbine is running optimally so we'll still need base-load/grid level storage for when they aren't) - It's a hell of a thing.

Re: Britain has gone two months without burning coal to generate power

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with that is two-fold: 1. Not nearly enough trees are being planted to offset the ones being cut down. 2. Neutral on a scale of 30 years doesn't much matter when we have to reduce the degree to which we're accelerating a highly non-linear climate change process right now.

I'm not sure about in Britain, but in the U.S. we do sustainably farm trees used for timber and have done so for the past 100 years.

That is the point where someone bring up photos from almost 100 years ago and make comparison photo of today and notice the obvious: there is a lot more trees in the old photos.

Re: Britain has gone two months without burning coal to generate power

#103

Hummm, not sure wood pellets are carbon neutral. I think the UK has just offshored its CO2 emissions to the US. Great video below explaining in more detail. https://youtu.be/6RP-jYDgiMg?t=100

That and the transportation costs from the US to the UK which are also not negligible.

Re: Britain has gone two months without burning coal to generate power

#104
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The carbon is captured when the tree grows and then released when the wood is burned. This is different from fossil fuels where it is underground.

1. 'Waste wood pellet' power plants are a con job. 2. There is not nearly enough wood waste from construction sites/etc to operate them. 3. They have to be supplemented with wood cut down from forests. 4. There aren't nearly enough forests in the UK to operate these plants sustainably. 5. So, the wood they burn comes from cutting down Canadian forests, trucking them down logging roads, loading them onto barges, and s…

Most of your points are verifiable _facts_, so there is no discussion to be had there. However, the _why_ is an important point that you didn't mention.

If these 'bio-mass' operations are so obviously illogical and unstainable why are they pushed so hard?

The large portion of these operations are old coal plants and incinerators. These are effectively wood chip burning furnaces that managed to reposition themselves through lobbying and marketing in order to ride the 'green' wave and be labelled as 'renewable' on paper, enabling them to collect massive amounts of tax payer "green" funding to pay for operational costs that could never be profitable otherwise.

This is a case where you have old polluting businesses trying to avoid bankruptcy by grabbing "green" funding.

PS: Things I've read in the past from astroturfers on this topic:

- It's "renewable" because we plant trees that capture carbon (not at the rate that you need to burn it to break even).

- It's reclaimed wood (marginal volume compared to forest wood).

- We also burn organic waste (doesn't burn as hot as wood chips).

- It's wood from responsibly sourced forestry (which you transported across oceans from Canada, Malaysia and Brazil).

- It's not sustainable now because we haven't started replacing local forest with fast growing trees (this would absolutely kill local woodland bio-diversity).

Re: Britain has gone two months without burning coal to generate power

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK already has around 12,000 sq miles of forest, which is about 13% of the area. Half of the UK's land is owned by 1% of the population - a mix of aristocrats, wealthy individuals, and corporations. There is no practical issue with mass reforestation contributing to energy self-sufficiency, but there would be huge political issues.

We need the land for people not trees. The UK has a food deficit. Nut trees would be better than pine. Offshore wind and storage is the way forward. We need to press on with getting that sorted and save the land for other uses.

The Netherlands, with roughly double the population density of the UK, became a net exporter of food fairly recently. I think they did this by adding a lot of greenhouses.

I think the UK probably can’t add so many greenhouses because, in my opinion, local politics means “pretty” is valued more than “functional”.

This is also why on-shore wind isn’t already everywhere in the UK even though wind farms don’t prevent agriculture.

Re: Britain has gone two months without burning coal to generate power

#106
Every time there's a thread on the topic, I like to share this fantastic realtime map of the carbon intensity of electricity production in various countries :

https://www.electricitymap.org/map

As I write this, the UK's intensity is 326 gCO₂eq/kWh, which is nothing to write home about.

This is better than the worst European offender (coal-loving Poland : 652g) as well as Baltic countries, the Netherlands and Germany (373).

But it's far from the best in class : Nordic countries (around 20-30, thanks to hydro) or for a more comparable country, France (around 60, thanks to nuclear)

Germany is interesting because it consistently has one of the worst carbon intensity figures of all developed countries, in spite of a record-setting share of renewables that its green activists like to boast about, and hundreds of billions of € in subsidies poured into them in the past 20 years.

That's of course the consequence of its decision to phase out nuclear power in the early 2000s. Wind/solar are intermittent and there's no way around that (battery storage isn't nearly mature enough).

That leaves 4 options for handling the base load : nuclear, hydro, gas or coal. Only 2 of those are low-carbon. And if you don't have the geography for hydro (like the Nordics do) but still decide to go nuclear-free for political reasons, guess what you're left with ?

IIRC, German coal power plants have 7 spots in the top 10 worst air pollution emitters across the EU. Coal-related air pollution causes an estimated 10.000 extra deaths each year across the continent. Radiation caused one direct death in Fukushima. Thanks, Die Grüne.

Re: Britain has gone two months without burning coal to generate power

#107
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that would scale. According to their website ( https://www.draxbiomass.com/ ), each plant produces about 1/2 metric tonne of wood pellets / year. The Drax plant uses 7 million tonnes / year, so you would need 14 equivalent plants to produce enough wood pellets for just one power plant. In the 1980's, old growth logging was shut down in my state (Oregon) for environmental reasons. The new growth forests h…

> According to their website ( https://www.draxbiomass.com/ ), each plant produces about 1/2 metric tonne of wood pellets / year This is off by a factor of a million, though I think you reached the right conclusion.

Oops, yeah, each production plant lists capacity at about 1/2 _million_ metric tonnes / yr.

Re: Britain has gone two months without burning coal to generate power

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK already has around 12,000 sq miles of forest, which is about 13% of the area. Half of the UK's land is owned by 1% of the population - a mix of aristocrats, wealthy individuals, and corporations. There is no practical issue with mass reforestation contributing to energy self-sufficiency, but there would be huge political issues.

We need the land for people not trees. The UK has a food deficit. Nut trees would be better than pine. Offshore wind and storage is the way forward. We need to press on with getting that sorted and save the land for other uses.

To be fair much of Scotland used to be covered in forestry and has been denuded. There are some interesting projects showing what happens if the land is simply protected from over grazing (particularly by deer).

As for grid scale storage, the Tesla battery in Australia is 185Mwh, or roughly a 10th of the amount of power the UK receives from France in an hour as a result of their overproduction of nuclear power. It's a drop in the ocean compared to what would be needed to get us though a stormy night when the offshore wind shuts down in high winds.

Pumped hydro is great but is hugely dependant on topology. There are some interesting developments like liquid metal batteries that might one day answer the storage problem but none which have demonstrated the scale required to go completely free of carbon emissions.

I think load shaping will probably play a larger part than most people give it credit for. There are some interesting developments, including solid state circuit breakers, which could be switched on and off over a network to reduce the load or to take advantage of over capacity of renewables.

Re: Britain has gone two months without burning coal to generate power

#109

Hummm, not sure wood pellets are carbon neutral. I think the UK has just offshored its CO2 emissions to the US. Great video below explaining in more detail. https://youtu.be/6RP-jYDgiMg?t=100

Wood pellet burning is a temporary distraction and distortion caused by regulation that allows it to be counted as "renewable". I believe you can make a reasonable argument wood burning is carbon neutral. Unfortunately, land used for growing forests of fuel represents a terrible opportunity cost - you could grow food or let the forests absorb atmospheric carbon, provide animal habitat, re-wilding, etc. However, there…

You can't make an argument that it's carbon neutral -- They don't just burn deadfall, and you can't grow trees faster than you can burn them.

Prior to coal, the developed world burned massive amounts of wood, which contributed to massive deforestation. This is literally a step backwards, and not in any good way. When civilization burned wood for energy >500 years ago, sure, because demand was so low. But by the 1700-1800's demand for energy was so high that burning wood was untenable - coal literally saved the forests. Today, energy demands are exponentially higher, and there's no chance biomass is going to be better than coal from an impact standpoint.

I hate to disagree on renewables, but I think there is also no way renewables as we think of them today (wind, solar, batteries) are going to be the answer either. At best they are a tool enabling independence from grids, but from a worldwide energy demand perspective, they are untenable. I think Michael Moore's recent film did a decent job of outlining the problem. Next gen nuclear is probably our only hope save population reduction (hello COVID).

Re: Britain has gone two months without burning coal to generate power

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wood pellet burning is a temporary distraction and distortion caused by regulation that allows it to be counted as "renewable". I believe you can make a reasonable argument wood burning is carbon neutral. Unfortunately, land used for growing forests of fuel represents a terrible opportunity cost - you could grow food or let the forests absorb atmospheric carbon, provide animal habitat, re-wilding, etc. However, there…

I'm not sure you can make a reasonable argument that burning wood is carbon neutral, unless you want to open the door to saying that any CO2 emission is carbon neutral because the carbon can be reclaimed when it is converted into plant matter. It is kind of an absurd argument, unfalsifiable because it also applies to kerogen-based fuels like petroleum and natural gas, both of which begin their long life cycles as org…

(note, not defending Biomass)

While Biomass should not be treated as 'renewable', the key difference between burning biomass versus coal is that the inherent carbon in biomass could be treated as a cycling of carbon that already exists in the carbon cycle (assuming where it is harvested is then replanted with trees, which many of them are) - versus the burning of coal (or any other fossil fuel) which takes 'stored carbon in the ground' that has NOT been part of the carbon cycle for millions of years and increases the total amount of carbon in the atmosphere & the overall 'natural carbon cycle'.

So - 'in the fullness of time' (decades) it is 'carbon neutral'.

But the tragedy in Biomass is not just the destruction of forests as you mention (sometimes old growth) or the loss of an active carbon sink - the carbon dioxide is still released and will be sitting around when we least need it to - it will still warm the planet.

Hopefully, the EU and other countries will abandon the Biomass retrofits and jump ahead to accelerated Solar, Wind and Energy Storage deployments.

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