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Playing around with the Fuchsia operating system

blog.quarkslab.com

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Re: Playing around with the Fuchsia operating system

#121

Post by VWWHFSfQ »

teho wrote: post #112
VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Minix 3 is a true microkernel, and is currently a popular niche OS Isn't it the most widely deployed operating system in the world? It's embedded in basically every Intel CPU

This keeps getting repeated, but I don’t understand how that would lead to it being the most popular OS there is. There is way more embedded systems than there is Intel CPUs on the market and they often run Linux. Android phones are sold more than four times the amount of PCs a year. I’d assume that most Intel CPUs are deployed in the data centers... that run Linux.

but the cpus deployed in datacenters also run minix. even the ones running linux. or windows

Re: Playing around with the Fuchsia operating system

#122

Post by dekhn »

kakwa_ wrote: post #113
dekhn wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I remember choosing Linux in '93 because it had a huge momentum behind it (the hacker literally asked me "Linux or BSD" before handing me 4 floppies). I didn't really understand the technical or legal differences at the time, but it was clear that BSD wasn't as "hot". In retrospect I really liked BSD for a lot of the ways it did things (more stable, excellent long-term backwards compatibility).

If I recall correctly, at the time, BSD was stuck in a lawsuit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX_System_Laboratories,_Inc.... . I'm wondering if it had a detrimental effect on adoption of *BSD, and thus increased Linux popularity at this early and critical time.

Many BSDheads I know from that time believe that was the case (I was asked by them "why didn't you go with BSD" and TBH I just liked the GPL license since I had recently read the section about Stallman in Hackers).

I think another issue is that linux added new features rapidly which probably helped adoption.

Re: Playing around with the Fuchsia operating system

#123

Post by [deleted] »

modeless wrote: post #30
nicoburns wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of the userland pieces are in Rust. I don't think Rust gives you much advantage for kernel code (esp. in a microkernel), because most of it is unsafe anyway. And Rust has some missing pieces for this kind of code (for example, using custom allocators on a per-data structure basis is still difficult).

I've heard this kind of argument a lot and it's getting tiresome when we just keep seeing the same old preventable bugs being a problem time and time again. Yes, a kernel written in a safe language will still have security bugs. But it would absolutely have a very large positive impact. And any problems with safe languages can be worked around with a bit of imagination, especially with the level of effort already req…

[deleted]

Re: Playing around with the Fuchsia operating system

#124

Post by bsaul »

mrep wrote: post #76
asah wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

bing has under 3% marketshare vs 92.06% for google. As an advertiser or app/publisher, google has "the power to control prices or exclude competition." https://www.google.com/search?q=bing+market+share

From Section IV of the Justice Departments article: The Supreme Court has noted the crucial role that defining the relevant market plays in section 2 monopolization and attempt cases. The market-definition requirement brings discipline and structure to the monopoly-power inquiry, thereby reducing the risks and costs of error. The relevant product market in a section 2 case, as elsewhere in antitrust, "is composed of…

"For search advertising, they will likely find other forms of advertising such as Facebook as a good enough substitute and thus the market definition will include other forms of advertising and not just search."

Nope, they won't. because 92% of people search the web on google.

Re: Playing around with the Fuchsia operating system

#125

Post by ardacinar »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #121
teho wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This keeps getting repeated, but I don’t understand how that would lead to it being the most popular OS there is. There is way more embedded systems than there is Intel CPUs on the market and they often run Linux. Android phones are sold more than four times the amount of PCs a year. I’d assume that most Intel CPUs are deployed in the data centers... that run Linux.

but the cpus deployed in datacenters also run minix. even the ones running linux. or windows

What about the ones that are on fridges?

Re: Playing around with the Fuchsia operating system

#126

Post by csomar »

RivieraKid wrote: post #57

I'm more excited about the possibility of a high quality desktop OS rather than the kernel. The Linux kernel is great but a great open-source desktop OS doesn't exist today. Specifically, this product doesn't exist today: - Desktop environment that matches or surpasses Mac OS in quality, performance and UX design. - It includes seamless synchronization between devices. - Apps are sandboxed, similarly to Android or iO…

A good functioning Desktop experience for Linux is impossible.

- It requires a massive centralized investment. Microsoft/Apple/Google can do that. But Linux is run by amateurs (not talking about skills but rather guys who are not on a payroll).

- Linux is for people who have rather weird setups. Apple uses limited hardware (ie: You have few Macbook Pros, etc...). Windows is supported by manufactures because it is the standard of Desktop computing for most of the world (and still can be a mess). Linux, on the other hand, has to do all that work alone.

- Linux professional and profitable market is still in servers/deployment where you don't need a desktop space.

Re: Playing around with the Fuchsia operating system

#127

Post by cycloptic »

quicklime wrote: post #95
kyaghmour wrote: post #4

This debate about monolithic vs. micro-kernels has been had many times. Maybe this time the resolution is different, who knows. But FWIW Linux didn't reach its success because someone made a feature comparison between it and what else was out there in a spreadsheet and somehow discovered how Linux was so much better. Instead, Linux won (and continues to win) because it's the Rocky Balboa of operating systems. It may…

I think it’s a bit early to declare Linux’s market victory here. The obvious thing for Google to do is to use this in Android, and this will solve a number of big problems for them (specifically, binary-only drivers and a better security model). They might even have some success in the server or desktop spaces as well. I worry a bit that Linux will be the next Firefox.

>binary-only drivers

If by this you're referring to their promises of a stable driver ABI, I can't understand what problem this is supposed to solve compared to Linux. There are plenty of binary drivers already shipped on Linux. IOT device vendors don't care about a stable ABI because they just pin to their kernel version. Android device vendors don't care because either way they will stop updating their kernels after a number of years. Enterprise users don't care because they also pin to a kernel version and backport what fixes they want.

It also does not seem to solve any problem for Google because they still have to make the same stability/support promises and deal with the same accumulation of legacy code either way. Yes, this is necessary to stop fragmentation but the problem is nothing really changes here compared to what they would do if they were going to take on the cost of backporting Linux kernel fixes. The only realistic cost saving for them I could see is if the greater stability came from reducing the total amount of hardware that is supported compared to Linux. Which makes sense for them but at the same time completely eliminates the possibility of them ever seriously touting this as a Linux replacement.

Re: Playing around with the Fuchsia operating system

#128

Post by malkia »

I can't get fuchsia to work anymore on my Acer device. It used to work just 10 days ago, hopefully gonna fixed soon :) - https://ci.chromium.org/p/fuchsia/builders/global.ci/worksta...?

(e.g. I'm compiling for --release workstation.x64 --with-base ... the kitchen-sink)

Re: Playing around with the Fuchsia operating system

#129

Post by 762236 »

kyaghmour wrote: post #4

This debate about monolithic vs. micro-kernels has been had many times. Maybe this time the resolution is different, who knows. But FWIW Linux didn't reach its success because someone made a feature comparison between it and what else was out there in a spreadsheet and somehow discovered how Linux was so much better. Instead, Linux won (and continues to win) because it's the Rocky Balboa of operating systems. It may…

That so many OS developers are working on Fuchsia and other kernels suggests that the Linux community hasn't been very successful with inclusion and handling disagreement and infighting.

Re: Playing around with the Fuchsia operating system

#130

Post by moron4hire »

RivieraKid wrote: post #57

I'm more excited about the possibility of a high quality desktop OS rather than the kernel. The Linux kernel is great but a great open-source desktop OS doesn't exist today. Specifically, this product doesn't exist today: - Desktop environment that matches or surpasses Mac OS in quality, performance and UX design. - It includes seamless synchronization between devices. - Apps are sandboxed, similarly to Android or iO…

You just described UWP apps on Windows 10.

Developers flat out rejected it because of the smartphone-like sandboxing.

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