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Tribalism comes for pandemic science

thenewatlantis.com

181–190 of 211 posts

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for your R0 values? As far as I know there have been no per-state R0s released, though current estimates put ~20% at antibody positive [^1] in New York meanwhile Texas has a very low infection rate in comparison. This likely has much more to do with relative densities than lockdown strategy. Texas is low density, and it was necessary to have looser restrictions in many areas due to distance to es…

You can get per state R0 values. rt.live is a website (that is not part of russia today), the RT url comes from "R0". It's from the people that sold instagram to facebook. They do have per state R values. This does show that NY is at about 0.8. Texas is 1.02 currently. The one negative with their calcs is their R values seem too sensitive to daily conditions. It's a great visualization of infection rates too, please…

Ok, so I spent some time digging into their source code. This is a model, and like many models it's output is fully dependent on the input. In this case we're dealing with significant inputs and assumptions tied to factors such as onset, delay, testing correctness and a lot of things we just don't have data for.

I'm going to share some quotes from the code.

> Our goal is to translate positive test counts to the dates where they likely occured. Since we have the distribution, we can distribute case counts back in time according to that distribution. To accomplish this, we reverse the case time series, and convolve it using the distribution of delay from onset to confirmation. Then we reverse the series again to obtain the onset curve.

> We assume a poisson likelihood function and feed it what we believe is the onset curve based on reported data. We model this onset curve based on the same math in the previous notebook

> We calculate this by figuring out how many cases we'd expect there to be yesterday total when adjusted for bias and plugging it into the first equation above. We then have to re-bias this number back down to get the expected amount of onset cases observed that day.

I don't want to invalidate efforts to build models because models are important, but it's also important to frame models as being statistical models and in this attempting to resolve R0 values from self-reported data, across districts with dramatically altered reporting methodology is extraordinarily fraught with peril. Even the model authors indicate this and have made several improvements, and models will naturally evolve over time.

Then let's touch on some of the stats we're looking at. Remember we are dealing with a sampled phenomenon - as our sampling rate changes (the amount of testing we're doing), our case rate will naturally rise. We want more testing because it helps us determine more accurate numbers, but it also means we need to understand we may see spikes in our daily reported cases. We therefore want to be careful with using small samples (3 or 4 days).

You'll also notice we have natural declines that align with the weekends - it's not because the disease takes the weekends off. One of the dangers of reading the worldometers graphs is that they're inclusive of all the data, including data from March/April which is probably underestimate.

Texas started lessening quarantine restrictions on May 16th, and indeed until about the 29th we see a pretty consistent decline (well past any incubation time). From the 30th to today's data (and always take the current day with a grain of salt because reporting isn't always instant) we do see a growth, primarily due to several abnormal spikes in the last week. When we compare that against deaths we don't see those same spikes represented - and in the last two days of the series (excluding today) we see a declining pattern again (but two days a pattern does not make).

So it's wrong to say "Texas has about 1500 new cases per day now. They've had a steady increase in new cases per day since mid April, when they were about 750 new pos cases/day. They are really growing.". The 7 day average keeps us at 1200 or less, with the exception of the last few days.

I pulled the hospitalization data from [^2] (xlsx format unfortunately) and while hospitalizations are technically increasing as a whole, that is almost entirely in the TSA of Houston (though Dallas/Ft Worth and Longview/Tyler show some increase as well) with 19 other TSAs declining or remaining steady. So, I wouldn't be overly concerned for your family, the data indicates things are generally going quite well.

I would be careful in how we read data.

[^2]: https://dshs.texas.gov/coronavirus/additionaldata/

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#182
post #176
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of diagnosed cases or positive test results is only loosely correlated with the number of actual infections. Thus any calculation of R values based on cases isn't mathematically valid.

> The number of diagnosed cases or positive test results is only loosely correlated with the number of actual infections. Then that just means that we are likely underestimating R0--possibly by a huge amount. Okay, I agree with you. Infections aren't LESS than the diagnosed cases and positive test results. So, all the calculations from data about the estimates of R0 are all a lower bound, not an upper one. As such, o…

You missed the point. There are a lot of cases which are never formally counted as "cases" because people recover without ever being diagnosed. We don't know whether that fraction of unreported cases has increased or decreased over time. Outside of a few limited areas there hasn't been enough random population sampling to draw any reliable conclusions one way or the other.

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#183

This is so very disheartening. I will speak only for the United States, as I am not familiar enough with other countries to comment. Not only is this impacting nearly every single person in the country, it is ruining the financial situation of over 40m people, primarily concentrated within the most financially vulnerable. This is because leaders on the left and right have refused to respond to new data, and are worki…

By your words, let's allow vastly heightened danger to those over 40. How about, we have national regulations for safe interactions, rules requiring ppe when appropriate, and available ppe. Your company has to provide it if you work together. It turns out its very very hard to provide ppe that protects people when they work closely together (see the meat packing plants, see hospitals). My families economic safety is…

How many kids die of the flu each and every year? How many kids die of malaria? Of tuberculoses? Where were you during the last strong flu season? Get off your high horse and actually contribute ideas instead of fear.

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political realism is about optics. If the Democrats back down on their egregious lockdowns they'll look even more disorganized than they did in the primaries so it's not worth the risk when the progressive arm of the party is still throwing a tantrum and Biden is struggling to unify the party. On the other side, many Republican states have constituencies that see COVID as a matter of personal responsibility and which…

The democrats are not in control of the country, they are in control of a few states but there's a lot of different ideas gonig around. No one would say NY would be better off if they hadn't cut it down a lot and shut down. Washington state is another place that looked like it was going to get out of control but the shutdown moved us from worst in the us to a much smaller impact than originally feared. Now look at Te…

The testing rate has also increased. Raw number of positive tests is a shit metric used to spread FUD and taken out of context

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#185
post #30

Whenever science and politics intersect, science loses. If science is studying something apolitical like the metabolism of water bear or a quasar burst from a distant galaxy it’s fine. Throw politics in the mix and the waters become muddied very quickly when funding and reputational concerns motivate and corrupt a delicate process. Politics is like Lennie who wants to pet the rabbits. Science is like the rabbits.

I am honestly and hearteningly surprised to even hear these sentiments from someone else here, which I have now observed for years. It's one reason why I love HN.

I'm not in the science field, but I absolutely am a student of human nature (and mindfulness). It's unbelievable how much the mechanism of science is dirtied, distorted, and abused by our emotional pride, greed, tribalism, fear, and all other aspects of human nature, which show that - for all our intelligence - we humans are wired for survival, and only wired for truth if and when it helps that survival. If truth comes at odds with it, we will lie - even if to ourselves, and at very deep subconscious levels - as much as we need to.

Rationalisation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)

How this biological reality plays out is complex. It's not just in our lizard brain, but the entire realm of our secondary limbic brain, with its 'tribal' swirl of social emotions and resulting behaviours. 'Survival' means a great of things, not just literal survival right in front of you right now. It's a powerful and primary goal coursing through our blood and all behaviour at the deepest and most subtle levels. We would do well to educate about this fact, and practice mindfulness to be able to see it in ourselves.

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#186
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No country has successfully done isolation of vulnerable, while there are many countries that have successfully eradicated or at least brought it to extremely low levels. With cheaper testing, pooled testing protocols, etc. we could potentially test every household in the US every couple of weeks for less than we spend on auto insurance.

You can do both. Iceland isolated their older population quite well.

Sure, but if you do both, isolating the elderly becomes easier because there is less prevelance and slip-ups are less likely to cause issues. It is a totally different strategy than what he was saying. The US stopped nursing home visits as partial form of isolation.

To fully isolate you would need workers to go through quarantine periods before entering on shifts. Many vulnerable live at home so you'd have to provide support to isolate their cohabitants as well or something else. Physician specialists that serve vulnerable and non-vulnerable populations without enough overlap to split duties with similar doctors between both populations would need to operate inside a bubble boy setup or something.

The vulnerable also include people with pre-diabetes, heart conditions, etc. that may not be diagnosed, though maybe you just treat them as those not to be isolated.

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#187
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was less worried about it at the beginning - I think I had a decent understanding of how fatal it was, but underestimated how contagious it was. I think I came around to a mental model of how to react fairly early on, though. The basic model was stay at home until either a vaccine arrives or until we have anti-viral treatments that reduce severity and improve outcomes. Neither has happened, so I'm in the same boat.…

"The basic model was stay at home until either a vaccine arrives or until we have anti-viral treatments that reduce severity and improve outcomes." Something key about this statement: This was not what the public was initially told. We were told that the lockdown was to flatten the curve while testing was ramped up and to ensure that the rate of infection was slowed to prevent a spike from causing avoidable deaths du…

It's not like there was one unified message about this, ever. Yes, it was commonly understood that preventing "avoidable" deaths from stressed hospitals was a sufficient reason to lock down, but that doesn't mean that it was unanimous that it was the only reason. From the beginning, if you ask ten people what "people are saying", you'll get ten different answers. My own impression of what the public was initially told does not match up to yours.

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#188
"don't wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty but the pig will love it"

Somehow the lowest kind of politics, on all sides, manage to drag us all down to their level. A culture war is just like any other war in the sense that on the battlefields nobody wins, and both sides lose.

As a child growing up late last century, I always wondered how prosperous progressing culture's could have collectively devolved into the dark ages. I saw the seeds of the unraveling start in the 80's, but like any exponential process, it took some time to become a clear vector.

I am not sure this is a preventable or correctable evolution at this point, as the devolution forces are enshrined within the system itself, leaving only room for a collapse at the meta level.

I may be wrong. I truly hope I am.

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The democrats are not in control of the country, they are in control of a few states but there's a lot of different ideas gonig around. No one would say NY would be better off if they hadn't cut it down a lot and shut down. Washington state is another place that looked like it was going to get out of control but the shutdown moved us from worst in the us to a much smaller impact than originally feared. Now look at Te…

The testing rate has also increased. Raw number of positive tests is a shit metric used to spread FUD and taken out of context

What you say is not true - it could be true potentially but the data shows that's not the case. Tests counts relatively stable recently but pos counts went up and percent of tests that were positive also increased.

See https://www.covidexitstrategy.org/. As you see on this page, many states are increasing absolute number of tests - Texas is actually steady for a week at around 18k tests per day. But the % of people testing positive is increasing (see that same website).

On that page scroll to 'how is my state doing on testing' and look at Texas, it's interesting to compare states. Notice last week number of daily tests was around 18k/day. Test positivity went from 5.5% to 7.7%.

This isn't a political issue, it's just the actual numbers. Compare to say Wyoming (increased tests unlike Texas from 472 to 690 per day, test positivity went down there). Oregon is getting worse (2.4k tests/day, in the last week 1.5% to 3.4% of tests are pos).

Texas is having increasing covid-19 positive tests, it's not from increasing the number of tests and icu bed space is going down. This website gives the data source so you can look at it yourself.

Re: Tribalism comes for pandemic science

#190
post #84
post #17

The people who said that lockdown needed to be limited in length because people couldn't take it for long were right. Unfortunately, due to not understanding exponentials, many advocated for starting the lockdown later : hence the UK's delayed lockdown and therefore highest death toll in Europe. The people advocating for "herd immunity" never addressed the death rate; a death rate of even 0.5% in the UK would be thre…

> Unfortunately, due to not understanding exponentials, many advocated for starting the lockdown later. I think you misunderstand the reasoning. If you want to wipe a disease out you lockdown as soon as you can. If you want to flatten the curve, you lockdown just before the peak, so as to prevent it. Or if you are ok with flattening the curve for a longer time, you lock down just before you reach capacity.

I'm sorry, I've been reading and re-reading this. Were you being snarky? With perfect forethought, why would anyone ever choose against wiping out the disease early?
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