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Human-Level Intelligence or Animal-Like Abilities? (2018)

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Re: Human-Level Intelligence or Animal-Like Abilities? (2018)

#31
post #5
post #3

Careful... you're on the verge here of realizing that intelligence is not a single-dimensional thing and that 'g' is bullshit.

Trollish comment above but I do wonder about this. I always hear people who think ‘g’ is bullshit giving some form of this argument: “AI can’t even x, how would you expect it to ever possibly do y?” It’s like saying: “How could a baby, which can not even tie its own shoes, spell a simple word, or fill a cup with water, ever possibly grow up to write a book, manage a corporation, or formulate a strategy for fighting a…

We have billions of examples of babies growing up to learn to spell and tie their shoes, therefore it's very reasonable to assume that that's a skill most babies will get to.

There are 0 examples of a man made construct reaching "general" intelligence (whatever fuzzy meaning you may attach to it); there is no reason to believe that because we can reach some arbitrary human milestone today ("be a world class Go player"), any other human milestone ("start and run a company, and be a mentor and inspiration to others") is plausible.

This is a very different case from e.g. "we built a prototype plane that can lift 15 ft off the ground for 10 seconds, we should be able to build one that can lift 10,000 feet for 10 hours", because in the former case we were beginning to have an understanding of aerodynamics that made that path plausible. We do not have such an understanding backing current ML work. That's well illustrated by the fact that only 6 years elapsed between the first manned flight and crossing the Atlantic by plane - practice caught up to theory really fast, as it tends to do in those cases. We are about 6 years in the current ML revolution - what is its equivalent to crossing the Atlantic?

The logic you're advocating for here is more along the lines of "I taught my dog how to sit - shouldn't be too hard to get him to sit in front of a computer and start writing Python code now that I've got the first half figured out".

(or - I taught my dog how to fetch - shouldn't be too hard to train him to be a full time food delivery employee, etc).

Re: Human-Level Intelligence or Animal-Like Abilities? (2018)

#32
post #31
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trollish comment above but I do wonder about this. I always hear people who think ‘g’ is bullshit giving some form of this argument: “AI can’t even x, how would you expect it to ever possibly do y?” It’s like saying: “How could a baby, which can not even tie its own shoes, spell a simple word, or fill a cup with water, ever possibly grow up to write a book, manage a corporation, or formulate a strategy for fighting a…

We have billions of examples of babies growing up to learn to spell and tie their shoes, therefore it's very reasonable to assume that that's a skill most babies will get to. There are 0 examples of a man made construct reaching "general" intelligence (whatever fuzzy meaning you may attach to it); there is no reason to believe that because we can reach some arbitrary human milestone today ("be a world class Go player…

> There are 0 examples of a man made construct reaching "general" intelligence (whatever fuzzy meaning you may attach to it); there is no reason to believe that because we can reach some arbitrary human milestone today ("be a world class Go player"), any other human milestone ("start and run a company, and be a mentor and inspiration to others") is plausible.

No reason? If you were an outside observer looking at the very first individuals of what you decided to call human, maybe. But after so many steps were made? You can argue that, before there was a plane, there was zero reason to thing that humans can ever create one. And you could've claimed that for pretty much anything else. And you'd generally see that they did get created. Why would artificial intelligence be fundamentally different? I'm not saying "we can do it in the next five years", but to say that there's no reason to believe that it will ever happen?

> We do not have such an understanding backing current ML work.

And we did not have the knowledge of aerodynamics before we started looking into throwing things, then keeping things in the air for longer than they would if they were thrown, and eventually flying them (yes, a bit simplified).

Re: Human-Level Intelligence or Animal-Like Abilities? (2018)

#33

Surprised I haven’t come across this analogy before. Thinking about it now, ‘Animal-like abilities’ is a much better analogy in the context of the general public. It also helps ground scientists in thinking deeply about the difference between human and animal intelligence (some animals can use tools).

This is vague but it was a while ago... some researcher was trying to make AI more accessible to the public by downplaying high expectations. She represented it as a cartoon dog, amiable, willing, but evidently none too bright. I believe it was no more than an experiment, though a clever one. Ring anyone's bell?

[deleted]

Re: Human-Level Intelligence or Animal-Like Abilities? (2018)

#34
post #3

Careful... you're on the verge here of realizing that intelligence is not a single-dimensional thing and that 'g' is bullshit.

Please don't post shallow flamebait, a.k.a. troll, in HN threads. Especially not on classic flamewar topics.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Human-Level Intelligence or Animal-Like Abilities? (2018)

#35
post #15

Ant level intelligence I'd be happy with. "Colony you may now clean up my kitchen table and do the dishes. Thanks"

And then you keep thinking about how fast cereal is disappearing in your house, wondering whether you're just so sleepy in the morning you don't remember eating more and more of it - until one night you spot a string of AInts stealing your cereal, piece by piece. By the time you've realized your mistake, the colony has grown 100x in size and already spread to the two neighboring houses, being held back by the front l…

:) that wld entertain me, having witnessed a couple ant-termite wars in the garden.

Re: Human-Level Intelligence or Animal-Like Abilities? (2018)

#36
The title of the article does an awful job of summarising it. The main subject of the article is not about the level of intelligence of current or future AI, as the title suggsts. Instead, the article is a reflection on the progress in the field in the last few years and a discussion of the degree to which progress in deep learning has benefited, or harmed, AI research in general.

This is best summarised by the "Key Insights" box on top of the article:

> the recent successes of deep learning have revealed something very interesting about the structure of our world, yet this seems to be the least pursued and talked about topic today

> In AI, the key question today is not whether we should use model-based or function-based approaches but how to integrate and fuse them so we can realise their objective benefits

> We need a new generation of AI researchers who are well versed in an appreciate classical AI, machine learning, and computer science more broadly while also being informed about AI history.

The first "key point" refers to classes of functions that can be seen as "cognitive functions". For example, mapping a set of inputs to outputs can reasonably be considered as approximating some aspect of cognition when the inputs are regions of images and the subjects their labels, so that the function performs object recognition, a task that AI research has long considered an aspect of cognition. Understanding how such functions work has the potential to contribute to our understanding of human cognition, that has long been a major goal of AI research. Yet, in recent years, interest has shifted from understanding such results to applying them at the level of phone apps, etc.

The final key point is a call to arms. We can't make progress as a field by throwing out everything we've done before, everytime we achieve some success in a narrow range of tasks. The author witnessed this happenning in the 1980's with the rise and fall of expert systems -and the AI winter that followed. In modern times, the success of deep learning has all but eclipsed the deep knowledge that researchers in the field once possessed about symbolic logic and important avenues of research are impossible to follow because the younger generation of researchers simply don't have the necessary background - and are "bullied by the success" of neural networks into directing their careers towards neural network research, whatever their true interests.

On a personal level, not summarising the article anymore, the latter is the most disturbing development. Neural networks can perform "perceptual" tasks, but are wholly incapable of reasoning. Symbolic AI had reasoning down pat- and not in approximate fashion (as a recent trend in deep learning research attempts to perform it). Yet, we seem to have regressed and lost one ability to perform one set of cognitive tasks in the process of figuring out how to perform another.

In the past, AI researchers were well-rounded polymaths, versed in CS but also (continuous) mathematics, physics, psychology, linguistics... Nowadays, researchers seem to be optimising for a narrow band of knowledge and ignoring everything else. This cannot end well.

Re: Human-Level Intelligence or Animal-Like Abilities? (2018)

#37
post #5
post #3

Careful... you're on the verge here of realizing that intelligence is not a single-dimensional thing and that 'g' is bullshit.

Trollish comment above but I do wonder about this. I always hear people who think ‘g’ is bullshit giving some form of this argument: “AI can’t even x, how would you expect it to ever possibly do y?” It’s like saying: “How could a baby, which can not even tie its own shoes, spell a simple word, or fill a cup with water, ever possibly grow up to write a book, manage a corporation, or formulate a strategy for fighting a…

>“How could a baby, which can not even tie its own shoes, spell a simple word, or fill a cup with water, ever possibly grow up to write a book, manage a corporation, or formulate a strategy for fighting a war? Impossible!"

I don't think anyone has ever said that and meant it. Except to the very naive, it's pretty obvious that a child growing up into a functional adult is a function of training volume and adaptation. On the other hand, training volume for "AI" tends to be huge and yet there are definite strata that these machines seem confined to.

I agree that that form of argumentation is meaningless though. AI is obviously improved over time, but as far as I know that's due to external modification and not just more training.

Re: Human-Level Intelligence or Animal-Like Abilities? (2018)

#38
post #15

Ant level intelligence I'd be happy with. "Colony you may now clean up my kitchen table and do the dishes. Thanks"

Ant swarm intelligence is not perfect. Sometimes they fall into infinite loops killing the entire colony: Ant death spirals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0HoqjxfvJ4

Cool clip thx. Very interesting and hadn't heard of it. Could be a feature tho to get rid of the dumbest ants.

Re: Human-Level Intelligence or Animal-Like Abilities? (2018)

#39
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ant swarm intelligence is not perfect. Sometimes they fall into infinite loops killing the entire colony: Ant death spirals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0HoqjxfvJ4

Cool clip thx. Very interesting and hadn't heard of it. Could be a feature tho to get rid of the dumbest ants.

You might need to extract ant pheromones and draw a circle with it, so that ants keep reinforcing that circular path attracting more ants, forming a death pit.
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