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Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

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Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Camden thing is going around a lot but to me it seems like they did a reorg and actually ended up hiring more police. https://www.tapinto.net/towns/camden/sections/law-and-justic...

I don't think anyone is against more police, but rather the tactics used and how that money is spent. Twenty years ago, police deploying tasers was an outlier. In 2020, it's become normalized and happens thousands of times a year. There's no reason we can't have better trained, restrained police at the same or greater budget. It's the tactics that are in question, and qualified immunity which allows bad actors to do…

> Let's not pretend we didn't just see 57 police officers resign from a volunteer position because two of their own were caught on camera pushing a 75-year old man to the ground and held accountable because "just following orders".

I have a slightly different take on this, and to be clear, seeing that video was absolutely shocking and made me feel nauseous and even light-headed.

The officers were part of a unit that was specially trained by FEMA to do exactly what they did;

> "The unit’s training is part of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, or FEMA’s, Field Force Operations course. It’s a three-day training which covers skills including baton-holding positions, mass-arrest procedures, and riot-control formations, according to the website." [1]

Suspending the officers is deflecting the blame from where it really lies. The state (politicians) deployed that team to do exactly what they did, and knew or should have known that people would be hurt as a result of those tactics.

I guess you could imagine some sort of active riot scenarios where people are under attack by a mob, and where those tactics are specifically necessary to essentially rescue hostages..., but the situation they were actually deployed into was not remotely that from what I understand.

I think of it this way. When we look back at Tienanmen Square, do we blame the person driving the one tank at the front of the column, or do acknowledge that every driver in every tank was not strong enough to refuse to follow those orders, but ultimately the leaders of the regime are to blame.

That's why I think making the story about the officers is actually missing the point, and further blaming the other 57 officers who resigned doubly-so. The officers are resigning because they are being hung out to dry to take the blame for the leader's mistakes. I was hoping to see the "57 officers resign" story used to pivot the blame onto the police and political leadership rather than reinforcing the notion that the blame is just on bad actors / bad apples.

There are systemic issues with the system, and this is a perfect example of where officers are being trained to act in exactly the wrong way, and then being deployed inappropriately. These weren't rogue officers. The criminal case to charge is not so much assault by an individual officer, but reckless endangerment by the people who made the decision to deploy an aggressive riot control team out into the general populace.

[1] - https://cdp.dhs.gov/find-training/course/PER-200

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am fine with more police if we entirely redefine police to mean social workers, counselors, community assistants, etc. And if they didn't carry guns nor drive unmarked cars. Police should be seen and they should be seen interacting positively with the community, not patrolling in a gradient of (un)identifiable vehicles.

Those aren’t police. They are part of the social safety net and community wellness. How would you ask a police officer to react to a criminal brandishing or firing a gun in public or at him? How would you ask detectives to work cases against gang leaders if they cannot conceal their identity?

> Those aren't police

... from Latin politia "civil administration," from Greek polis "city"

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#284

As others have said, I think "burn it to the ground and start over" is highly underrated. My concern is that policing could be taken over by private entities, which I suspect would be decidedly worse.

What is pretty obviously going to happen is that police will simply move from areas that want to get rid of them to areas that support them.

I don't think the Minneapolis PD cops will have to move to Australia to find a job. They'll just find work a few miles further away, whether it's public or private security.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#285

I can't help but wonder if the aggressive nature of U.S. police officers are out of fear that people might have guns - and that it just starts a cycle of escalation along with citizen rights being ignored. It is a real contrast to NZ where officers are smiling, friendly and disarming when they approach you - this would be the norm here even if you are a patched gang member. We do have issues, here in NZ (racial profi…

Don't think it's fair to compare US to NZ. The New York -> City <- is more populated and complex than New Zealand.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#286
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Said someone who has clearly never been part of a big bang software rewrite before.

I mean if I had an elevator that occassionaly plunged people to their deaths I'd be past trying to patch the bugs and calling in a completely different elevator company. Also, large monolithic systems get replaced constantly. The projects that get in trouble has more to do with project management and change management, the code is just tangential.

Ha, exactly.

"We've been patching bugs in this elevator software for years and people are plunging to their deaths at lower rates than they used to. Give us a couple more decades and we will have this all fixed."

I might suggest ripping out the elevator and just putting in some stairs.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#287

I can't help but wonder if the aggressive nature of U.S. police officers are out of fear that people might have guns - and that it just starts a cycle of escalation along with citizen rights being ignored. It is a real contrast to NZ where officers are smiling, friendly and disarming when they approach you - this would be the norm here even if you are a patched gang member. We do have issues, here in NZ (racial profi…

The aggressiveness of police does come from fear. That fear comes from training[1]. And it is fear that people they come in contact with will have a gun. The fear is absurd and not founded in reality.

In California it is illegal for a regular non-law enforcement officer to have a gun in public or in the passenger compartment of their vehicle. Open carry, concealed carry, unloaded, doesn't matter, all illegal. Open carry used to be legal in California, but was banned after the Black Panthers used that right to protect black people from police abuses[2].

In the 1960s the National Guard and federal law enforcement were used to protect protesters against the police abuses[3].

Now only the police abusing us are allowed to carry guns, and the National Guard and federal law enforcement are being sent in to help the police abuse us.

I think the police need to give up their guns before the public have any more of their gun rights stripped aware.

[1] https://medium.com/s/story/fearing-for-our-lives-82ad7eb7d75...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selma_to_Montgomery_marches

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#288

I can't help but wonder if the aggressive nature of U.S. police officers are out of fear that people might have guns - and that it just starts a cycle of escalation along with citizen rights being ignored. It is a real contrast to NZ where officers are smiling, friendly and disarming when they approach you - this would be the norm here even if you are a patched gang member. We do have issues, here in NZ (racial profi…

Don't think it's fair to compare US to NZ. The New York -> City <- is more populated and complex than New Zealand.

And guns are nearly banned in NYC as well.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The masses have a voice in proportion to the degree to which they control where their taxes go. The power of the purse is remarkable, because you can destroy (almost) any instutition by simply defunding it (which is also why any attempt to circumvent that power, e.g. Executive re-purposing of funds, should set off huge blaring alarms.) And when it comes to "what congress can do" I'd argue that it's 90% about allocati…

You could argue the US has a debt as large as it does because it has the strongest military on Earth. Who is going to enforce the debt collection? Using this logic and the destabilization of US military the natural answer is another highly militarized government. So where there is lawlessness there is opportunity for authoritarianism whether that’s a gang, police, US military, or foreign adversary. We need to be smar…

The fact that the debt is deliniated in US controlled currency is what protects us. Now, our stability, partially due to our military allows that to happen. But it isn't necessary to avoid being collected on.

Re: Minneapolis City Council members announce intent to disband police department

#290

I can't help but wonder if the aggressive nature of U.S. police officers are out of fear that people might have guns - and that it just starts a cycle of escalation along with citizen rights being ignored. It is a real contrast to NZ where officers are smiling, friendly and disarming when they approach you - this would be the norm here even if you are a patched gang member. We do have issues, here in NZ (racial profi…

Gun control is an extremely polarized topic here. “Right to bear arms” is part of the second amendment in constitution. As long as that stays there, we’ll have far more gun related deaths than any other western nation per capita. The NRA is well funded and lobbies (bribes) republicans to vote against anything gun control related. There is just so much money to be made from guns that we’re happy to sacrifice human lives as a trade off.

This is unlikely to change unless all President, Congress and Senate overwhelmingly agree it’s a problem and need to be changed. I don’t think it will happen unless there is a real massive shootout. Like millions of deaths.

May be 2100, we’ll get our shit together and realize what a horrible idea it was to let it linger so long.

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