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America is giving up on the pandemic?

theatlantic.com

671–680 of 1001 posts

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#671

Quoted from a letter from 1,000 health professionals on the virus and protests [0] >However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States. We can show that support by facilitating safest protesting practices without detracting from…

Crazy conspiracy theory incoming... What if the Illuminati or whoever runs society just figured out the fastest way to get tons of young people infected to speed up the herd immunity process??

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#672

Quoted from a letter from 1,000 health professionals on the virus and protests [0] >However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States. We can show that support by facilitating safest protesting practices without detracting from…

Yup, public health institutions disgraced themselves in the beginning of the crisis[1], but it turns out this isn't just an unfortunate case of institutional rot: it apparently runs deep, throughout the individuals involved in the field. I'm a big supporter of the role experts play in a functioning society, but public health experts are yet another group setting their credibility on fire to provide momentary warmth to a political objective.

[1] many of them have done so for years, for anyone paying attention

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Not Police would be in grave danger. There is a reason that the Police Police are armed. That don't need to be armed with firearms. That's overkill (literally overkill, unfortunately) for community policing. They could have batons. Firearms should be restricted to specialists deployed only when needed for a specifically authorised task.

> That don't need to be armed with firearms You're asking police officers to be less armed then the general public. 43 states are "shall-issue" and allow residents to conceal carry a firearm after completing required training and submitting an application.

What's wrong with most police not having lethal weapons? If police are in danger, they can request SWAT backup, specialized firearm users who won't shoot in unwarranted situations. Regular cops could even have tasers or rubber bullets to deal with threats in a less destructive manner. Why do they need lethal force for helping their own citizenry?

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#674
post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worthy isnt the number of deaths involved, its the amount of justice it might achieve in response to. Protesting the lockdown is not a just cause. Saying "Well now anything doctors say is political!" does not show good intent or faith, but someone looking for a gotcha statement so they can say "See, they were political actors all along!"

The entire point of protesting is people saying they believe something is unjust. You can't decide what other people think is unjust. You would be negating the entire point of protests. I think the quarantine of the healthy was unjust. You're going to tell me I can't protest against it?

Actually that's the point of opinion, you get to decide what you think of other people's causes.

Nobody said you cant protest to your heart's content, you can protest over anything. It's just calling out one of those protests is a mite's buzz of a complaint to a lion's roar of shame for the treatment of black people by America.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget public health officials outright lied and said masks don’t help reduce the spread of the disease, putatively to help conserve masks for medical personnel: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... > When news of a mysterious viral pneumonia linked to a market in Wuhan, China, reached the outside world in early January, one of my first reactions was to order a modest supply of masks.…

When I first started doing volunteer health assessments and triage at our local homeless shelter, I inquired if facial hair was an issue with PPE. The organization's initial response was no. I sent them a link to the CDC guidance[1] that includes this picture regarding facial hair styles that are ok[2]. I don't think the notice at the top of said article is helpful whatsoever saying that this isn't advice for covid-1…

What would someone find offensive about the picture?

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#676
post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to what definition are you claiming that police brutality is not a public health problem?

Oxford Textbook of Public Health: https://m.oxfordmedicine.com/mobile/view/10.1093/med/9780199... . Do you see any sections on police brutality? Not to mention, I have family in the field, I grew up with probably a dozen public health experts attending Thanksgiving dinner, and did my first internship at a public health company. At no point in hearing decades of shop talk did I ever hear police brutality being mention…

Out of curiosity, were guns or poor maternal outcomes for black women discussed as public health issues? The former has long been thought of as a public health problem but it is rarely discussed due to politics. The latter has been a problem for decades but only acknowledged recently. I recognize you have some expertise here, but I don’t think there is a finite set of issues that can fall under ‘public health’.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a shining example of weasel speak. They don't explicitly say it's not risky - because that would be plain lying, it is obviously risky - but they are saying they are not condemning it as risky. Perhaps it’s not so much weasel words as a carefully coded “caveat emptor”

A weasel in a cravat is still a weasel.

Observation: “weasel words” gets used a lot in HN comments as a cop out. I wish that phrase could be banned from this site because it is intellectually lazy. Commenters love to discredit articles and other commenters using that phrase rather than engaging in the actual effort to retort with facts. It’s the kind of broken culture that’s been turning HN into the same kind of cesspool that happened with slashdot.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#678

Total deaths in US caused by police. (2019, full year): 1112 [1] Total deaths in US caused by coronavirus (last Friday, one day): 975 [2] [1] https://www.theroot.com/here-s-how-many-people-police-killed... [2] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Comparing apples to apples: Average daily deaths in US caused by heart disease: 1800 Average daily deaths in US caused by cancer: 1600 Average daily deaths in US caused by corona virus: 1000 https://www.healthline.com/health/leading-causes-of-death Comparing oranges to oranges: Total deaths in US caused by homicide (2019): 19510 Total deaths in US caused by police (2019): 1112 https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicid…

I appreciate the numbers you present. I also think it is helpful to put the scale of death from different sources in context.

But it’s also helpful to present the causes as well. Your roommate can’t cough on you and give you heart disease.

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#679

Total deaths in US caused by police. (2019, full year): 1112 [1] Total deaths in US caused by coronavirus (last Friday, one day): 975 [2] [1] https://www.theroot.com/here-s-how-many-people-police-killed... [2] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Comparing apples to apples: Average daily deaths in US caused by heart disease: 1800 Average daily deaths in US caused by cancer: 1600 Average daily deaths in US caused by corona virus: 1000 https://www.healthline.com/health/leading-causes-of-death Comparing oranges to oranges: Total deaths in US caused by homicide (2019): 19510 Total deaths in US caused by police (2019): 1112 https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicid…

I'm with you in that there are other stats which we can compare which may be more similar, but I do feel that the context is still important for those that don't have a real frame of reference for death tolls. "apples to oranges" is very context specific and becomes an argument of semantics quickly. Yes, heart disease kills more people... but is that really pertinent to the discussion of whether or not the protests are worth the risk of the further spread of covid 19?

Re: America is giving up on the pandemic?

#680
post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to what definition are you claiming that police brutality is not a public health problem?

Oxford Textbook of Public Health: https://m.oxfordmedicine.com/mobile/view/10.1093/med/9780199... . Do you see any sections on police brutality? Not to mention, I have family in the field, I grew up with probably a dozen public health experts attending Thanksgiving dinner, and did my first internship at a public health company. At no point in hearing decades of shop talk did I ever hear police brutality being mention…

I've seen some indications that many people in the public health field feel that everything that affects morbidity and mortality is potentially within scope for them, including, for example, intentional actions like assault or murder.

A difficulty with this view, at least potentially, is that it seems to allow everything in the world (certainly almost every area of public policy) to be in scope for public health, because almost everything in the world has potential to affect morbidity and mortality. At one level this broad view seems obviously correct, but at another level it seems obviously crazy (or at least likely to bring the public health profession into conflict with everyone over weighing in on every kind of decision that anyone ever makes).

In the past there was a fight between some CDC researchers and Congress over something about handgun policy because the researchers were studying something about guns and violence that made some gun rights activists nervous that there would be an argument presented under the banner of public health to limit access to guns. I believe the conclusion was that they told CDC to stop studying this, which, again, seems to me to be susceptible of some mix of "there might be a lot of legitimate reasons to have this information" and "does the public health profession get to weigh in with claimed expertise on every issue?".

I think it's a legitimately thorny conceptual problem because if you think of health as something like "flourishing" or "people having success in living the way they want" or "eudaemonia" or something, almost every public policy question can be conceived of as a "health" question. (Or even, maybe, "minimizing all-cause mortality"?) But if someone says that the policy answer to each question is therefore obvious because a particular profession thinks it knows what would maximize things it thinks it knows how to measure, I imagine a lot of the public is going to say that this doesn't match up with its notion of what health is.

Edit: after writing this, I had this weird imagine of public health as like a superintelligent AI that's super-focused on one goal and doesn't understand, or doesn't care very much, that people might have other goals too. We think there's obviously something that's going to remain outside of the scope of the AI's interest, but since the AI is smarter than we are, it discovers a way that that thing is actually relevant to its interests according to its utility function, after all! (I realize people have also had this kind of concern about other institutions that are happy to define their scope of action more broadly over time, such as profit-maximizing corporations, or militaries. The corporation says "we need to figure out what actions will maximize profit" or the military says "we need to figure out what actions will maximize our capacity to win wars" and perhaps the scope and ambition of their actions are soon larger than anyone would have expected.) I feel like this analogy is actually weirdly apposite, at least for some audiences. :-)

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